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The ongoing MH entry fiasco

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#281 ·
And Wade, I take exception to your characterization of the MN as supposed to be the Super Bowl, World Series, etc. of Hunt Test games. Are we competing against each other to pick a winner or competing against a standard? Your analogy would indicate the former and I really think it should be the latter.
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BUT------------ It really should showcase the best of the best not a pile of dog that "Qualified" by passing 6 tests out of god knows how many...... I say you have to have a 75% pass rate 3/4.. Oh wait that would take a whole bunch of money from 4 different souces, and that would never fly...
 
#282 ·
Okay so Master Natnl is supposed to be the big problem not VIP... So if there were some changes to make it a really select group of dogs how about

5 Master passes in fiscal year every year at 80% success

Minimum of 10 total passes in career (would hold out the young hot shot dogs who really might be not ready

with a 75% pass rate in both to qualify for invitation.

And drop VIP at EE.
 
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#283 ·
jacduck said:
Okay so Master Natnl is supposed to be the big problem not VIP... So if there were some changes to make it a really select group of dogs how about

5 Master passes in fiscal year every year at 80% success

Minimum of 10 total passes in career (would hold out the young hot shot dogs who really might be not ready

with a 75% pass rate in both to qualify for invitation.

And drop VIP at EE.
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Now you are talking. Kudos big time. right on. :cool:
 
#285 ·
mjh345 said:
I believe this has been done. Thank you to all who had a hand in this
A blow for fairness has been struck.
Now we can worry about other issues to help the supply and demand equalize itself
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Why would you say that? What is consider to be fair and with that to whom? Just saying. Are we here to make things or are we here to hinder. I really believe we all want in best interests and hopefully not in self interests. Just sayings. :)
 
#286 ·
Larry Housman said:
And Double Haul, I think you are understating scratches by quite a few, because many secretaries don't bother to list scratches, they just put down passes so failures and scratches look the same. I've got two of those on my dog's EE record, and as a matter of fact I'm also down for going out in the first series of the 2012 MN when I was actually 900 miles away and had scratched two weeks earlier. I got my refund check so I didn't much care, but it just goes to show that you can't believe all the records.
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In the data I pulled from EE, I would not have the scratches after the close for the tests, but these are usually not many. On our circuit it is maybe a few per flight--maybe none, since those fees are not refunded except for injury or dog in season. I suspect that holds true around the country, but if it doesn't it still doesn't change much.
 
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#288 ·
Jay Dufour said:
I got a message from EE yesterday that said VIP cannot be used for AKC hunt tests from now on.
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Problem solved. Those evil pros will not be able to stink up HTs and there will be slots aplenty for any amateur who wants to wait until 11:59 on the day of closing.:roll:
 
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#289 ·
If EE is making changes to the VIP entries for HT are they making any other changes such as posting opening times or standardizing opening times? Did you receive notice from EE regarding the VIP change because you are a VIP member or was there a communication? I am only asking how they communicated this change as I am not a VIP member and have not heard of any changes. Curiosity is all from my end regarding if there are more changes to come. I think that EE is a great asset with the right policies and procedures in place, I am anxious to hear how they are going to help the situation as I truly believe they will.
 
#290 ·
Sadie & Ruby said:
If EE is making changes to the VIP entries for HT are they making any other changes such as posting opening times or standardizing opening times? Did you receive notice from EE regarding the VIP change because you are a VIP member or was there a communication? I am only asking how they communicated this change as I am not a VIP member and have not heard of any changes. Curiosity is all from my end regarding if there are more changes to come. I think that EE is a great asset with the right policies and procedures in place, I am anxious to hear how they are going to help the situation as I truly believe they will.
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The clubs have always had complete control over when an event opens and whether or not the opening time is published. This does not require EE intervention. The AKC may want to establish standard times for opening an event for entries as well as require the opening time be published in the premium. They already have certain requirements for the premium so would fit the existing practice.
 
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#292 · (Edited)
RockyDog said:
Its kind of a slow night here, so I did some rummaging around in the AKC's event statistics on MH titles and Retriever Results for MN qualifiers. There's some margin for error since I only used 5 of the breeds eligible to compete in retriever hunt tests (Chessies, Curly Coats, Flat Coats, Goldens and Labs), but the numbers are close enough for this discussion. In 2007, these five breeds earned 502 MH titles and Retriever Results reported that there were 316 dogs qualified for the Master National. In 2013, these breeds earned 681 MH titles and there were 837 dogs qualified for the Master National. The ratio of MH titles earned and dogs qualifying for the MN went from 63% in 2007 to 123% in 2013. I'm not a rocket scientist, but these numbers tell me that "fixing" Entry Express VIP is like putting a band-aid on a water hose. I believe the source of the problem is the Master National and it's qualification requirements. Someone more familiar than I can probably look at these numbers and guess when the MN requirements were tweaked.

2007 2008 20092010 20112012 2013
MH Titles Earned (5 breeds)502575548593703694681
MN Qualifiers (all breeds)316421515475742909837
Ratio MN Qualifiers to MH Titles Earned63%73%94%80%106%131%123%
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Looking at these numbers, the dogs qualifying for the MN in 2013 accounted for about a third of all Master entries that year. Thanks for the data!-Paul
 
#293 ·
captainjack said:
The clubs have always had complete control over when an event opens and whether or not the opening time is published. This does not require EE intervention. The AKC may want to establish standard times for opening an event for entries as well as require the opening time be published in the premium. They already have certain requirements for the premium so would fit the existing practice.
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And this is how it should be and should stay. No club should be on a time schedule of someone else. Until you have handled HTS and Hunt Chairman, you might not understand this. Sometime it just takes longer for clubs to get all finalized before opening. I am very glad the VIP program is gone. Even if a pro can enter 20 or more dogs at one time, they still need to put CC info in the system so will take just as much time as I do entering my 1 dog. It is a start, but as others have said, the MN needs to go back to a certain number of passes each year to qual.
 
#294 ·
For everyone that believes a percentage of qualifications is needed let's discuss the past.
Just a few years ago the 5 of 7 qualifications was tried for 2 or 3 years.
Understand the concept of judge shopping became an art form.
The sport still suffers today from some of the high completion rates experienced. Couple that with a popular vote to elect judges and there's a recipe for something

Wow on the VIP program. Those folks paid by check so no CC fee. Wonder how you pick up that slack of lost margin.
EE already was on the short end of the profit stick I wonder what this cost!
Dk
 
#295 · (Edited)
DoubleHaul said:
Problem solved. Those evil pros will not be able to stink up HTs and there will be slots aplenty for any amateur who wants to wait until 11:59 on the day of closing.:roll:
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Historically prior to limits those 20 dog handlers would wait until 11:59 on day of closing, causing splits; sometimes multiple splits; with a week for a club to deal with them. With limits it's doesn't matter if they wait until 11:59 closing. The only thing the elimination of the VIP program will do is make everyone have to put their money up front; it takes time to organize entry fees for multiple dogs. Still for a few tests it might not change a dang thing, but it puts the 20 dog handler on par with the single dog handler, simply because the money is up front. I wonder what kind've CC limit you'd need to stake 20+ dogs in multiple tests for 3-4 months, with the statement coming due every month? Might make a handler less prone to push a button on a dog they aren't sure will need the run.
 
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#296 ·
Quote Huntemup:
"The only thing the elimination of the VIP program will do is make everyone have to put their money up front; it takes time to organize entry fees for multiple dogs. Still for a few tests it might not change a dang thing, but it puts the 20 dog handler on par with the single dog handler, simply because the money is up front."

I'm fairly certain that the ht pro will simply use a CC and go ahead and bill his/her client the month of the entry rather than the month of the event so that the pro will not have any cash tied up. So that on par is actually no different than the former VIP.
 
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#297 ·
If labor truly is the largest limiting factor, how difficult would it be to have an early entry (24 hours) open to ANYONE & EVERYONE willing to commit to working/providing assistance during the HT? Not just club members.....

Based on the numbers of volunteers garnered, the club could THEN accurately set limits on entries.

It seems logical that volunteerism would increase significantly if said volunteers were given the opportunity to participate.

Just like everyone else, those with large numbers of dogs will simply need to bring help or get their clients involved if they would like to take advantage of the early entry.

IMO this is truly the most effective way to grow the sport..... VOLUNTEERISM!!!!
 
#298 ·
Several clubs tried that last year, including my club. AKC will not let you open just for a select few, you can only ask that everyone wait for a few hours or the next day and let your club member enter. NO one cares who gets in as long as they do. I am the one the opened our hunt and by the time I got my CC infor in, there were at least 12 entries in that were pros and non members/workers. Even thru we only announced out openings to members word got passed. I know of several other clubs that tried and same results. Sometime honor system just does not work
 
#299 ·
phillip1119 said:
If labor truly is the largest limiting factor, how difficult would it be to have an early entry (24 hours) open to ANYONE & EVERYONE willing to commit to working/providing assistance during the HT? Not just club members.....

Based on the numbers of volunteers garnered, the club could THEN accurately set limits on entries.

It seems logical that volunteerism would increase significantly if said volunteers were given the opportunity to participate.

Just like everyone else, those with large numbers of dogs will simply need to bring help or get their clients involved if they would like to take advantage of the early entry.

IMO this is truly the most effective way to grow the sport..... VOLUNTEERISM!!!!
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First off, labor may be a limiting factor for some clubs, but for many it is access to grounds or even the profitability of having to add a second pair of judges and their associated expenses or whatever. Workers are appreciated but not always the issue. Second, the clubs already accurately set the limits--it is their club, grounds, workers and test, so whatever limit a club chooses is, by definition, accurate and it is the height of arrogance to suggest that they are wrong. Finally, why is showing up to provide assistance the magic ticket? There is a tremendous amount of work involved in putting on a HT or FT that takes place well in advance of when the handlers show up. Those folks don't get in while the guy who takes the birds from the drying rack and bags them for one re-bird does?
 
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#300 · (Edited)
captainjack said:
Quote Huntemup:
"The only thing the elimination of the VIP program will do is make everyone have to put their money up front; it takes time to organize entry fees for multiple dogs. Still for a few tests it might not change a dang thing, but it puts the 20 dog handler on par with the single dog handler, simply because the money is up front."

I'm fairly certain that the ht pro will simply use a CC and go ahead and bill his/her client the month of the entry rather than the month of the event so that the pro will not have any cash tied up. So that on par is actually no different than the former VIP.
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With FT's I'd agree with you however, most pros don't enter FT until last week or so prior to close (when they know dogs are ready). Getting clients to commit to hunt test entries ahead of time is akin to pulling teeth; billing is usually the cycle after the close-test so handling fees, transport fees, etc. all go in at once, even then collecting $ can be hard; you can be out quite a bit of money for a significant period of time; waiting for clients to pay up. With the VIP program such didn't matter because no money was in play in till after a test; an entire month to bill clients, or prior to close scratch dogs, with clients not ready to commit the $$. If spots need to be held months in advance, most like without the VIP program the pro will ask handlers to put their own dogs in and not tie up a large amount of $$$, that they might need to continue operations, or wait until a week or so prior to sign-up for test, as they usually did in the past. If they need to wait to sign up the panic of (I can't get in) subsides; this panic is what's fueling 15min close of tests. If you watch most of those limited test that close early, lose a significant # of entries prior to close. EX there's a 90 that has been closed for months, it now has 10 spots open ~2 weeks prior to close, and I bet that falls. I've made other plans when it locked up otherwise I might've gone.
 
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DoubleHaul
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