I am practicing for seniors, my dog almost never pops on a mark, but clearly marked his walk up memory bird no break no creep. Retrieved go bird, and then ran in a straight line to the memory bird and then ran about 10 to 20 yards up the bank and then sat and looked at me. I waited for about 30 sec hoping he would resume his hunt because I did not want to handle. I yelled "no, fetch it up" he turned straight to it and swam to get it. He Clearly knew where it was just for some reason popped. Would that be considered a handle? Is it ok to talk to the dog, praise him and such on a mark?
Senior question
Luvdux
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I am practicing for seniors, my dog almost never pops on a mark, but clearly marked his walk up memory bird no break no creep. Retrieved go bird, and then ran in a straight line to the memory bird and then ran about 10 to 20 yards up the bank and then sat and looked at me. I waited for about 30 sec hoping he would resume his hunt because I did not want to handle. I yelled "no, fetch it up" he turned straight to it and swam to get it. He Clearly knew where it was just for some reason popped. Would that be considered a handle? Is it ok to talk to the dog, praise him and such on a mark?
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You yell "no, fetch it up" and I'd say your day is over.
But you shouldn't be concerned with whether you consider it a handle or not, you should try to understand what caused it and what you can do to fix it. I'd also say you shouldn't run a test if it happens more than once in a very long while.
When did the popping start?
Can you trace it back to anything new in training like starting cold blinds, starting to handle on marks for cheating or giving in to factors, etc.?
II. Moderate Dog Faults. Infractions in this category may actually be so slight as to warrant their consideration as only a “minor” fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious” fault; also, repetitions of a “moderate” fault or a combination of several of these faults may readily convert the total infraction into a “serious” fault.
6. Popping on a marked retrieve – stopping and looking back to its handler for directions on a marked fall before it has hunted for a considerable time.
I. Serious Dog Faults: Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of the dog which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake.
11. Stops its hunt.
There may be enough in the rule book to justify dropping the dog if it stops hunting after reaching the area of fall, or if he pops on two of the four marks in a test. Best to get this fixed before it really becomes a habit.
But you shouldn't be concerned with whether you consider it a handle or not, you should try to understand what caused it and what you can do to fix it. I'd also say you shouldn't run a test if it happens more than once in a very long while.
When did the popping start?
Can you trace it back to anything new in training like starting cold blinds, starting to handle on marks for cheating or giving in to factors, etc.?
II. Moderate Dog Faults. Infractions in this category may actually be so slight as to warrant their consideration as only a “minor” fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious” fault; also, repetitions of a “moderate” fault or a combination of several of these faults may readily convert the total infraction into a “serious” fault.
6. Popping on a marked retrieve – stopping and looking back to its handler for directions on a marked fall before it has hunted for a considerable time.
I. Serious Dog Faults: Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of the dog which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake.
11. Stops its hunt.
There may be enough in the rule book to justify dropping the dog if it stops hunting after reaching the area of fall, or if he pops on two of the four marks in a test. Best to get this fixed before it really becomes a habit.
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what capnjack said.
Popping on a mark is judged as a serious lack of perseverance and is a habit that needs to be corrected. Most folks would likely advise that you not handle the dog when he pops as this only reinforces the habit. Pup needs to develop the confidence to drive to and hunt up his marks w/o looking back to you for support. Make sure you're not advancing past pup's level of confidence. When/if he pops call him back in, have the bird rethrown and resend. Have you done "force to pile?" Might revisit that. If pup has not been through that drill try to find someone with good experience to help you through it. Good luck.
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I'm not trying to argue but I have never heard this before. Why would you call the dog in for a pop? If a pop is a lack of courage/perseverance would not coming back in without the bird be the ultimate lack of perseverance? I've always felt like this was one of those "never" times. "Never" allow the dog to come in without the bird. What is the thought process with your call in correction?
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Tough to make an absolute statement as to pass/fail without actually seeing the dog, but captainjack has given us the rules that the judges are following.
Popping on a mark is, I think, a matter of confidence - your dog simply may not have seen enough different marks.
Popping on a mark is, I think, a matter of confidence - your dog simply may not have seen enough different marks.
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What to do in a test vs. training are two different things and I'm not sure your post is clear to us what you want. In a test, yes your actions would put you out. In a test you can just wait him out or go ahead and handle smoothly and quickly TO the bird. In training, depends on the dog but what you did would be one of my options but again, depends on the dog and many other things that can't be discerned from your post or without us seeing the dog work.
Good luck and have fun with it!
Good luck and have fun with it!
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I agree. I have yet to see a handler yell "No!" at a working dog and see that dog reappear in the following series. For future reference, do the best and cleanest job on the test you can and let the judges judge, even if that means a clean handle.
Evan
Thank you for the replies. I am not really sure what caused the Pop. I almost think that in normal training if he cheats he gets corrected. he knew he was cheating and I was treating this like a mock test so there was no correction. I think that me allowing him to cheat and work it out on his own confused him. I may be over thinking that, but When I said fetch it up he went straight to it and knew where it was with no guidence. This was a new training place and the marks were cold earlier in the day. He nailed it twice already. the bumper did land right in a sun glare this time maybe that caused it. Also, this was the first time practicing walk up on water (but again he already did it twice that day). I may have just done it one too many times. Normally, I run him twice and put him up, but it was no nice out and the first time in a while we got in the water so I figured one more time won't hurt if we are both having fun. I am not so much concerned with what caused the pop because at this point it is not an ongoing problem. He just made a mistake in my eyes, and I can not control that. I am worried about how I handle the situation.
Here is what I gather from the replies.
In a test do not yell "NO" ever
In a test give the dog some time to try and work it out on his own and if it is clear he will not, handle him to the mark.
In training what I did was fine, I may want to consider calling him back as an alternative as long as I end with success.
I am trying to get a better feel for a test situation. Are all verbal commands out? so just a verbal "fetch it up" is just as bad as yelling no? can I talk to the dog? can I praise the dog? He is very used to Praise and encouragement from me, do I need to cut that out getting ready for test?
Let's say I already used my handle, could I have said his name again?
Here is what I gather from the replies.
In a test do not yell "NO" ever
In a test give the dog some time to try and work it out on his own and if it is clear he will not, handle him to the mark.
In training what I did was fine, I may want to consider calling him back as an alternative as long as I end with success.
I am trying to get a better feel for a test situation. Are all verbal commands out? so just a verbal "fetch it up" is just as bad as yelling no? can I talk to the dog? can I praise the dog? He is very used to Praise and encouragement from me, do I need to cut that out getting ready for test?
Let's say I already used my handle, could I have said his name again?
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I've had this happen to my dog as well, but it is usually easy to tell by their momentum when the pop occurs. If the dog is traveling full speed, spins on a dime and sits, he likely thought he heard a whistle. If the dog is running with little momentum and kinda looks unsure of where he's going, it's most likely not because he thought he heard something. And if the dogs stops his hunt in the area of the fall, I'd also say it's likely not because he thought he heard something.
There are drills available that help a dog learn to persist in a hunt. You can also make the birds easy to find once the dog makes the area of the fall.
I think most people who've trained and handled multiple dogs are well versed in subtle movements at the line that may get a popped dog moving without a handle. Body shifts, turn (in the direction the dog needs to go) to see if anybody heard a whistle, taking you hat off (with the hand on the side the dog needs to turn) and scratching your head, etc.. Keep in mind the judges know all these tricks too. I'd focus my energy on getting the dog not to pop rather than on getting through a test with a dog that did pop.
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Are you saying you ran the same test 3 times?
By rule popping on a mark is a moderate fault and would come under the perseverance ability on the scoresheet. If judge thinks one pop is a serious fault then it's his call. A crisp handle to the bird without the yelling "no" would have kept you in if I were in the chair. It's the yelling "no" that did you in IMO. You could try "did you hear that whistle from the other stake" and see if judges buy it. Usually not.
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To answer your question, yelling "NO" at a test will get you dropped. If you had the situation you described and you said, "fetch it up," that is considered a handle. Any direction or encouragement at the SH level is considered handling, unless it is on the return. Then you can say, "good boy, here" or something similar.
Meredith
Meredith
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I personalty would not of waited the 30 sec. I would have given the dog a fetch it up right away. Yes, your day would be over, but you would get a live a learn lesson.
I have noticed, that in a trial or test, depending on the experience of the handlers. They care to much about the test and not enough about the dog. You clearly saw that your dog was doing something that was not except-able. Getter done as fast as you can and resolve it in training.
Popping is usually a resolute of handling to much on retrieves or not a good balance between blinds and retrieves.
Keith
I have noticed, that in a trial or test, depending on the experience of the handlers. They care to much about the test and not enough about the dog. You clearly saw that your dog was doing something that was not except-able. Getter done as fast as you can and resolve it in training.
Popping is usually a resolute of handling to much on retrieves or not a good balance between blinds and retrieves.
Keith
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What do you say to your dog when you are hunting?
"Hunt em up pup!?!?"
...........no one knows for sure what made the pup sit.
Maybe a whistle, maybe a sound, maybe to much handling on marks.
But at the SH test level, the positive encouragement would have worked had I been in the chair.
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Why are you doing a walk-up as the memory bird? I may be wrong but I have never encountered a walk-up as a memory in a double of a seniors test. It is almost like an out of order flyer, a little advanced for that particular stage but I could be wrong.
As far as the dog popping, I very much agree with Tony; I would never handle a dog that pops or call it in. Sweat them out. The dog is telling you they don't know what to do and instead of figuring it out they are looking to you for guidance. The last thing you want to do is give them that. They will continue to pop because they know that you give them a way out. Calling a dog in on a mark is a huge deal and you better have a very good reason for it. This (to me) is definitely not one of them.
From the way the OP described this is in training not a test. As Brad stated, we do not train like we test.
I have no idea about where the back pile comment came in. Maybe I am missing something but how does FTP work into a dog that is popping? It is a mark not a blind.
As far as the dog popping, I very much agree with Tony; I would never handle a dog that pops or call it in. Sweat them out. The dog is telling you they don't know what to do and instead of figuring it out they are looking to you for guidance. The last thing you want to do is give them that. They will continue to pop because they know that you give them a way out. Calling a dog in on a mark is a huge deal and you better have a very good reason for it. This (to me) is definitely not one of them.
From the way the OP described this is in training not a test. As Brad stated, we do not train like we test.
I have no idea about where the back pile comment came in. Maybe I am missing something but how does FTP work into a dog that is popping? It is a mark not a blind.
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If you are out of balance in your training, i.e. running too many blinds over marks, popping MAY occur in dogs going thru transition frequently. If it occurs in training, I prefer to look away from the dog and wait him out. MOST times, he will continue on. If not, no, nick fetch.
In a test, with a transition dog, wait him out and let the judges decide.
CaptainJack, I hear you 100 percent If I start seeing a problem I will be more focused on future training. but at this point I am more worried about me failing the test not the dog. I do agree if the dog never pops in the first place I don't have to worry about me, but to be honest I am shocked that he popped in the first place especially on a mark. and I found my self not knowing how I would handle it if it happened in a test in an effort not to use my handle.
Darren, yes, I did run this 3 times.
Meredith, Thank you for making the distinction of on the retune. That helps a lot.
Keith, I know they were my words but I just counted out 20 sec and there is no way I waited 30. I would say I probably just waited 10 to 15 sec if that even. it seemed like a long time but it was probably because I felt under pressure to do the right thing. are you saying don't wait at all even in a test?
Darren, yes, I did run this 3 times.
Meredith, Thank you for making the distinction of on the retune. That helps a lot.
Keith, I know they were my words but I just counted out 20 sec and there is no way I waited 30. I would say I probably just waited 10 to 15 sec if that even. it seemed like a long time but it was probably because I felt under pressure to do the right thing. are you saying don't wait at all even in a test?
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Why did you feel the need to run the exact same marks 3 times?
I don't know how to answer that any differently than I have already said, I typically run the same thing twice, but it was the first nice day in a while and warm enough to get in the water so I figured one more time would not hurt. they were shorter marks than normal and he seemed to be having fun. It seems you have an opinion that I should not have, Can you explain?
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