PennHip vs OFA and why are we still preferring OFA

sclaybaker · Apr 14, 2015

Oh and FOM yes every vet I've ever had do OFA has knocked them out. I don't know if quite to the point of say a spay/neuter surgery where are pumping oxygen to the dog to breath but I normally drop them off and pick them up that afternoon once they wake up. So evidently I need to look into seeing if a vet near me will do it without knocking them out.

Rainmaker · Apr 14, 2015

My local vet will only do OFA with full anesthesia, he runs close to $300, haven't used him for OFA in a long time. Every other vet I know or use will only sedate if the dog isn't cooperative. Rough price range is couple hundred for hips/elbows and add on sedation if needed. I do have PennHip in reasonable driving distance, the prices range around $500-600 including sending a copy of the one view to OFA. Does not include elbows, so add on another film charge there too.

My main beef with PennHip is no database. I can't research relatives like I can with OFA. If there is a database, I can't find it. Yes, it's awesome that PennHip requires all films be sent, unlike OFA, which is skewed by the fact that many don't send in films if they don't look like they'll pass. But without a public database, how do I access all that info when researching a dog? Yes, I do take into account if a dog has sired/whelped pups, what they are throwing, what their siblings, parents, grandparents, etc, have done in the hip and elbow dept. Just knowing one dog's results is a little scary to me to make a breeding decision on. OFA itself suggests looking at the whole picture. A fair-rated dog with multiple close relatives having good/excellent hips may be the better choice vs an excellent-rated dog that has dysplastic close relatives or no OFA history at all.

I do OFA prelims on hips/elbows at 6-8 months, when depends on when or if they are going off to trainer but 6 months minimum. In 16 years and many Labs, I've had 3 prelims change at finals, two went up a grade, one went down, none have been dysplastic on final films. I have had one pup I bought in the last couple years be moderately, bilaterally dysplastic on prelim and the 2nd and 3rd Labs I ever bought were dysplastic on prelim. Given their films & age at the time, I doubt PennHip would have given them a very low DI either. I did have one person with a pup with unilateral hip mild subluxation per OFA, so no OFA number, while PennHip gave it a .40 and .32, no DJD present.

I think there are benefits and problems with both PennHip and OFA, hips aren't easy or simple, neither are elbows. You're going to have dysplasia sometimes, regardless of all the clearances. Xrays are a screening tool, not a guarantee.

Mn John · Apr 14, 2015

sclaybaker wrote:

but for example if you look up and say every sibling of that dog has dysplastic hips and that particular dog has excellent hips which I'm sure is highly unlikely but just for purposes here then you would not want to breed that dog? I would still consider breeding that dog even though siblings are no good because it's based on that dog alone.

No I would not breed to that dog. Both Penn Hip and OFA evaluate only what we can see, it's phenotype. The evaluation of it's close relatives gives us some insight into the genotype, and it is the genes that get pasted on to the next generation. the dog in the example above, that is excellent with many close relatives that are fair and dysplastic indicate there is a higher probability that family of dogs has hip problems. The excellent dog just happen to end up with the right combinations of genes for good hips, beating the probabilities, but also that the less desirable genes are still there just not expressed.

Swack · Apr 15, 2015

Mn John said:
No I would not breed to that dog. Both Penn Hip and OFA evaluate only what we can see, it's phenotype. The evaluation of it's close relatives gives us some insight into the genotype, and it is the genes that get pasted on to the next generation. the dog in the example above, that is excellent with many close relatives that are fair and dysplastic indicate there is a higher probability that family of dogs has hip problems. The excellent dog just happen to end up with the right combinations of genes for good hips, beating the probabilities, but also that the less desirable genes are still there just not expressed.

Mn John,

You are correct in stating that we're only seeing the phenotype in viewing x-rays of a hip joint. It seems to me since we've been able to test for things like EIC, CNM, & PRA, which are caused by simple autosomal recessive genes, many people think hip conformation should be as simple and is controlled exclusively by genetics, but that's not the case. Estimates are that the heritability of hip joint conformation is about 35%. Therefore the remaining 65% of hip joint structure is due to non-additive genetics and the dog's environment, which would include things like nutrition, exercise, and living conditions. Therefore, we can't expect hip scores to tell the entire story of a dog's potential to produce good hip structure. Ideal environmental conditions might mask poor genotype, while good genetics could be masked by a dog being raised in an inferior environment.

Since OFA has the tools we can use to research the OFA hip scores of a dog's relatives and they also accept PennHip scores, why doesn't OFA modify their software so it includes both OFA and PennHip data on the vertical pedigree data for a dog?

Swack

Back77 · Apr 15, 2015

I just did both test on my dog. The OFA statistics are way off because not every dog that is x-ray'd is submitted to OFA to be graded. Most Vet's can tell if the dog is going to certify or not. If not they will tell them not to waste there money in sending in the picture. So most of the bad ones are never sent in to be graded. Penn has a rule that once the test has begun then they have to be submitted even if the vet can tell they are bad. OFA cost me under $200 and my dog was just lightly sedated and the Penn was $500 and the dog was out!

Hunt'EmUp · Apr 16, 2015

Just had 2 done, the OFA vet, has never knocked them out. We go in she takes them back less than 20 mins, they walk the dog back out, we go in to look at the films (computer ones these days), and vet discusses what she see's - with most likely rating. ~$200 for hips and elbow. Not sure I'd be as willing to sign the dog up for OFA at any particular clinic; if they had to knock them out; I don't like to put a dog out if I can possibly avoid it. Why would you need to knock them out for a simple x-raying; when 90% of the time your dealing with very well trained and cooperative dogs?

I've never done Penn-hip, as some have said it's hard enough to find a qualified OFA vet; OFA's are what the community uses; it has the data-base going back generations. Pennhip=extra cost; and most have no idea what it is; could it be better? Perhaps, but you'd have to do OFA anyways, and unless you are a hard-core breeder; producing several litters and watching lines for multiple generations; penn-hip most likely is not worth the extra cost.

Mn John · Apr 16, 2015

Back77 wrote:

The OFA statistics are way off because not every dog that is x-ray'd is submitted to OFA to be graded. Most Vet's can tell if the dog is going to certify or not. If not they will tell them not to waste there money in sending in the picture. So most of the bad ones are never sent in to be graded. Penn has a rule that once the test has begun then they have to be submitted even if the vet can tell they are bad.

For me the OFA statistics while interesting provide little in the way of useful information regarding breeding decisions. So not having dogs included that clearly would be at the bottom of the rankings doesn't provide any added value. As I said before I look at the rating of the close relatives. The ratings of unrelated or distantly related dogs have little use to me. While Penn Hip tells you where your dogs ranks in the breed, that data point is still just about that one dogs evaluation of it's phenotype. Penn Hip may be a better tool but it lacks the database to make it most useful.

John

duckdawg27 · Apr 16, 2015

What Ted said.......no access to certified radiologist. I've had to train my last two vets on OFA as it is. Luckily the one I'm using now has digital equipment so he can shoot 10 views if he needs to at no extra expense.

PennHip vs OFA and why are we still preferring OFA

sclaybaker

Rainmaker

Mn John

Swack

Back77

Hunt'EmUp

Mn John

duckdawg27

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