I guess I don't understand Senior Stakes

1tulip · Apr 25, 2015

The Senior stake allows controlled breaks. Seems a great way to teach a dog to be trial wise (or test-wise as the case may be) and that as soon as he's run w/out the e-collar, all bets were off and Hoo-HAW!!!

I also was sort of surprised by the distance of the blinds and marks. If people actually train for Senior, then they're training the dogs to hunt short or pop or some variation of those two. At a hunt test I attended a while back, mine blew past two marks on two separate days. But as errors go, I'd prefer that one.

I also was kinda surprised that multiple, multiple, multiple CAST refusals, pretty much didn't disqualify the dog. I thought my dog did a really hacky job on a water blind, but we passed. She didn't refuse me, she just didn't carry like I thought she should. It showed me I needed to raise my standards, but we passed.

Are we doing dogs and handlers a favor in these things? Are the tests themselves the reason a lot of dogs never get beyond Senior?

Rainmaker · Apr 25, 2015

Depends on the judges, what they are given for grounds, the temperature/weather, etc. Judging is subjective within the regulations. Judges have more leniency with SH than with MH. Some judges are more lenient than others, and carry dogs that don't have an automatic DQ. I've run plenty of SH tests that were quite challenging for the level of dogs they were designed to test. I've run plenty that had very low pass rates.

I view a controlled break as an opportunity for a firm recall, dog learns it can't break at a test/trial either. Unless your dog doesn't recall or learn from being recalled, then you do have some further issues to address in training. I don't believe my dogs learned to be test wise because they had controlled breaks in SH or Derby. In fact, I think my one higher bitch learned from her one controlled break. Others may indeed have a plan to pick up their dog if it moves, that's their standard and that's fine, but doesn't mean everyone has the same idea or the same problem with their dog. You will see breaks in Derby and Qualifying and not many are going to pick up the dog there either, unless it's a concern for them.

If your dog is blowing over short marks, then teach check down marks. The regulations define the walkup as being 35-45 yards, you know you're going to get at least one short bird.

If you want a higher standard, are dissatisfied with HT standards, then run FT and go against other dogs vs a standard that is designed to test hunting dogs, not to find the best dog that day.

John Robinson · Apr 25, 2015

Sounds like the Senior Hunt Test I ran in the early 90s. My dog was a pretty good marking and handling dog, so I was surprised at the trouble a lot of other dogs had on blinds. It was my experience that it took a lot to fail a Senior HT blind as long as you got the bird. I'm ok with that because Master is going to be a way different story. As for Senior, it is what it is, an intermediate level enroute to the Master level.

I agree with Kim, being able to continue with a controlled break is not a bad thing. If you feel otherwise, you have the perogitive to pick your dog up on the spot. Dogs need to mark short, medium and long. In actual hunting most birds fall 15-50 yards.

Billie · Apr 25, 2015

Senior is not an easy stake to judge. If you read the rulebook, it states that dogs should not be judged as stingently as in Master. They are not finished dogs-there are dogs barely out of junior and dogs ready for master. And most are in between.
As for rolling over short marks, every dog should be taught long and short marks and a variation of such. If you train on long only, the dogs will blow over the shorties,and if you train only on shorties, dogs will hunt short.
Senior is an intermediate level-
I agree with Kim at Rainmaker- if you want a higher standard then dont run hunt tests, go to field trials. Your dog is a MH already, correct? Why are you running that dog in Senior? Just curious what she will gain from that at this stage of her training....?

Todd Caswell · Apr 25, 2015

I see the SH as a way above average hunting dog, 90% of the dogs in the marsh or field on any given day couldn't run a Sr. test, let alone a Master or a Q. The SH best represents the dog an average hunter would own without having to be perfect, and in most cases is judged that way..

Dave Kress · Apr 25, 2015

Really a great debate - senior is tough and I suggest to folks that ask the question that you shouldn't enter senior till your ready for Master and to carry that farther don't enter junior till your ready for senior.

Great question

captainjack · Apr 25, 2015

1tulip said:
The Senior stake allows controlled breaks. Seems a great way to teach a dog to be trial wise (or test-wise as the case may be) and that as soon as he's run w/out the e-collar, all bets were off and Hoo-HAW!!!

I also was sort of surprised by the distance of the blinds and marks. If people actually train for Senior, then they're training the dogs to hunt short or pop or some variation of those two. At a hunt test I attended a while back, mine blew past two marks on two separate days. But as errors go, I'd prefer that one.

I also was kinda surprised that multiple, multiple, multiple CAST refusals, pretty much didn't disqualify the dog. I thought my dog did a really hacky job on a water blind, but we passed. She didn't refuse me, she just didn't carry like I thought she should. It showed me I needed to raise my standards, but we passed.

Are we doing dogs and handlers a favor in these things? Are the tests themselves the reason a lot of dogs never get beyond Senior?

No we are not, but the handler has complete control over that situation. If you give 5 casts trying to get a left angle back, and the dog scallops 5 times and gets the bird, who's fault is that? If your dog has a controlled break (not "allowed" by the book, just not an automatic failure), and you send for the retrieve, who's fault is that?

1tulip · Apr 25, 2015

Billie said:
Senior is not an easy stake to judge. If you read the rulebook, it states that dogs should not be judged as stingently as in Master. They are not finished dogs-there are dogs barely out of junior and dogs ready for master. And most are in between.
As for rolling over short marks, every dog should be taught long and short marks and a variation of such. If you train on long only, the dogs will blow over the shorties,and if you train only on shorties, dogs will hunt short.
Senior is an intermediate level-
I agree with Kim at Rainmaker- if you want a higher standard then dont run hunt tests, go to field trials. Your dog is a MH already, correct? Why are you running that dog in Senior? Just curious what she will gain from that at this stage of her training....?

Good question: I do have a MH dog. But I am worse than a novice handler. I LEARNED a lot from running this past HT and will run one, maybe two more at this level. SO, it's more for my benefit than the dog's. Having said that, she was having no-go issues in MH stakes and it probably has helped her to regroup. She will resume MH stakes when I've learned to run SH. I don't know if we will ever pass a Master together, but I will learn a lot in the process. In the meantime, I have another dog we'll be trying to bring up.

But... and this is where the questions arose, it had been years since I ever really paid attention to Senior. (Though I wasn't handling, I was a helper-bee in our training group and watched my dog run Master.) So much of what I saw from the handler's perspective was a revelation.

1tulip · Apr 25, 2015

captainjack said:
No we are not, but the handler has complete control over that situation. If you give 5 casts trying to get a left angle back, and the dog scallops 5 times and gets the bird, who's fault is that? If your dog has a controlled break (not "allowed" by the book, just not an automatic failure), and you send for the retrieve, who's fault is that?

Since that HT, we have worked on carrying a cast. Unfortunately, I wish we could do some serious training on water to really fix what I saw at this HT. We just don't have the opportunity, unfortunately. This drought sucks.

tim bonnema · Apr 25, 2015

The "cast refusal" is a tough one to judge. How do you know what my cast means to my dog? Were the dogs making progress to the blinds? From my limited experience as long as the dog is not blowing off the whistle (sit) and is making progress to the blind they are fine. EVEN IN MASTERS. remember marking is the major thing the judges are looking for. Primary importance I believe is how AKC words it in the rule book.

Also I will add, you may feel you did not deserve this one but the judges did and at some test in the future you are going to feel you were cheated for some reason or another and it will balance out.

Congrats on the pass your dog earned it.

Nate_C · Apr 25, 2015

I think it is by far the hardest of the 3 to judge. You have balance a lot. I think there are 2 good reasons to run senior. First, for many that is the highest title they will achieve either do to the dogs ability or they are not interested in pushing for master. Many handlers that are primarily hunters are like this. The second is if you are new to the game and need line time. It is good practice. If you have experience and your goal is clearly MH or above I would suggest skipping it and waiting a few months more and run Master. Even if you fail the first few it will establish the standard for both you and the dog. Plus it will save you $600.00 +

paul young · Apr 25, 2015

1tulip said:
The Senior stake allows controlled breaks. Seems a great way to teach a dog to be trial wise (or test-wise as the case may be) and that as soon as he's run w/out the e-collar, all bets were off and Hoo-HAW!!! Controlled breaks are not an eliminating fault in Senior, but they are hardly 'allowed'. The trainability score is affected, and if there are other faults connected to trainability, the dog may not pass that test. It is very rare for a dog to have high trainabilty scores and have only a controlled break.

I also was sort of surprised by the distance of the blinds and marks. If people actually train for Senior, then they're training the dogs to hunt short or pop or some variation of those two. At a hunt test I attended a while back, mine blew past two marks on two separate days. Your dog did not mark the birds. distance has nothing to do with that. Many, many people do not train on short bird marking who should. But as errors go, I'd prefer that one. If you were talking about a long retired FT mark, I would agree with you, but that's not the case here.

I also was kinda surprised that multiple, multiple, multiple CAST refusals, pretty much didn't disqualify the dog. Sounds like the judges that day may not have done the job as the regulations put forth.I thought my dog did a really hacky job on a water blind, but we passed. Did you ask to look at your score? You may have found that you had a decent score of say, 7 or 8 on the land blind and a score of 3 or 4 on the water blind for trainability. Those would average out to be more than 5, which is the minimum. She didn't refuse me, she just didn't carry like I thought she should. It showed me I needed to raise my standards, but we passed.

Are we doing dogs and handlers a favor in these things? Are the tests themselves the reason a lot of dogs never get beyond Senior? No, in my experience, the handlers and dogs are at fault for that.

I'm not trying to be argumentative- just trying to help you understand Senior tests and how they are judged.

We hear that folks should train for and the dog perform at the next higher level of testing before entering a test, and that's fine training advice. But on test day, the judges are charged with setting up a test which is appropriate to that level and judging it to that level. Don't confuse your personal training standard with testing standards. Good luck in the future!

-Paul

T-Pines · Apr 25, 2015

As everyone has stated hard to set up and hard to judge. Are you setting up a test that is closer to dogs just finishing junior or are you setting up a test that is closer to dogs getting ready to enter Master? I have had judges tell me that they like to do the latter. You are going to see plenty of those tests too. Long tough water marks with features and long up the shore water blinds with distractions on shore where they have to go over logs and vegetation and stay tight for the correct line to the blind. Then you have to let the judges judge, it is not Master and it is not supposed to be. You saw what you have to fix in your dog, which is nice to have pointed out in a Senior test. Be happy when you get the passes because there will be times when you felt you deserved to pass and you did not, but it all evens out.
I bet your next test will be totally different.

Colleen

duckdawg27 · Apr 25, 2015

As far as the controlled breaks are are concerned....if the dog is not steady it is not because the rules or judge allowed it. The dog breaks because he is not steady. If it was a DQ the dog would be out but he still would have broken.......maybe a lesson for the handler but the dog does not know he's out. If a dog picks up a mark after cheating or a controlled break IT IS THE HANDLERS FAULT.
Yes I agree with those above. Senior (and Seasoned) are the hardest to setup correctly and judge. Most of the dogs are in transition and their training is not complete. As a judge you know ahead of time you are going to be looking at "less than perfect" dog work. It is sometimes difficult to separate the ones who were not perfect but qualify from those who are not perfect and don't qualify. If judging on the point system it can literally be the difference between a 6 or a 7.

1tulip · Apr 26, 2015

The judges were excellent. I'm happy that we passed. (She has her MH so it doesn't count. Can I earn a SH-Handler if we finish 3 or 4 more???

) It looks like we may have to spend the summer driving a heck of a long way to find water to fix what is most problematic.

Some day I am sure I will understand a little better. I intend to do my share, take the necessary classes and pay the requisite dues to become a judge and I'm sure I will be more temperate then. (Though... my students prior to me retiring would not think that possible.)

Gun_Dog2002 · Apr 27, 2015

I would agree that senior is the hardest to judge. Its also hard to put aside your personal standards for dog work and judge according to the standard. I have to do that when I judge, but when I run dogs they maintain my standard. If they are creeping, vocal, breaking, not taking casts or in general not working with me, then their day is over.

/Paul

David Lo Buono · Apr 28, 2015

I don't understand Hunt tests...Or perhaps I actually do understand them, and Just don't like what I've some to realize........THey are fundamentally and an inherently FLAWED on many levels. Like a dormant "virus" it has taken years to gestate and expose these flaws.......Now it just seems like a participation ribbon for any dog that sort of resembles a "hunting" retriever....$$$$$$$$

John Robinson · Apr 28, 2015

David Lo Buono said:
I don't understand Hunt tests...Or perhaps I actually do understand them, and Just don't like what I've some to realize........THey are fundamentally and an inherently FLAWED on many levels. Like a dormant "virus" it has taken years to gestate and expose these flaws.......Now it just seems like a participation ribbon for any dog that sort of resembles a "hunting" retriever....$$$$$$$$

Wow, I sure disagree with you. I really believe the hunt test program is the best thing that ever happened for our retriever breeds. Before hunt test you had the 1% field trial trained dogs, some that actually hunted, 90% family pets and the "hunting" dogs that were so poorly trained it was common to see hunters throwing rocks or dirt clods into the water trying to get the dog to do a simple retrieve. Since the HT program, well trained "journeyman" retrievers are encountered in the marsh far more often than not.

I started with my first do around 1992, I didn't know anything, but got involved with NAHRA then AKC. The first step NAHRA Started and AKC Junior were huge steps for me, but ample motivation to train. Earning that JH Title meant the world to me, yet it seemed and was attainable. If all there was, was a Master level I would have been so intimidated I wouldn't have even tried. The Junior title put me within reach of Senior hunt test and encouraged me to train harder. After that it was hard work, but Master no longer seemed like an impossible dream. Obviously a dog that passes his first Senior hunt test is a long way from a finished Master Hunter, but it is an intelligent step up the ladder from total beginner to well trained hunting retriever, and makes perfect sense to me.

BJGatley · Apr 28, 2015

David Lo Buono said:
I don't understand Hunt tests...Or perhaps I actually do understand them, and Just don't like what I've some to realize........THey are fundamentally and an inherently FLAWED on many levels. Like a dormant "virus" it has taken years to gestate and expose these flaws.......Now it just seems like a participation ribbon for any dog that sort of resembles a "hunting" retriever....$$$$$$$$

Damn...It is only a hunt test...I agree

I believe we are all in this together or divided we fall.
Please don't chastised......

David Lo Buono · Apr 30, 2015

John Robinson said:
Wow, I sure disagree with you. I really believe the hunt test program is the best thing that ever happened for our retriever breeds. Before hunt test you had the 1% field trial trained dogs, some that actually hunted, 90% family pets and the "hunting" dogs that were so poorly trained it was common to see hunters throwing rocks or dirt clods into the water trying to get the dog to do a simple retrieve. Since the HT program, well trained "journeyman" retrievers are encountered in the marsh far more often than not.I started with my first do around 1992, I didn't know anything, but got involved with NAHRA then AKC. The first step NAHRA Started and AKC Junior were huge steps for me, but ample motivation to train. Earning that JH Title meant the world to me, yet it seemed and was attainable. If all there was, was a Master level I would have been so intimidated I wouldn't have even tried. The Junior title put me within reach of Senior hunt test and encouraged me to train harder. After that it was hard work, but Master no longer seemed like an impossible dream. Obviously a dog that passes his first Senior hunt test is a long way from a finished Master Hunter, but it is an intelligent step up the ladder from total beginner to well trained hunting retriever, and makes perfect sense to me.

A fairy tail, the marsh is still 1% "trained" retriever 99% train wreck

HT's are AT BEST a sterilized shadow of actual hunting......a lot of dog's will retrieve when is sunny and 80 degree's...A MH on a Saturday in May not be a MH on a Saturday in December
I'm not knocking the program per say, just categorizing it through my perception...The game(because that its closest resemblance) certainly hasn't detracted from the caliber retriever you might see in the field. BUT in my opinion you are most certainly overstating its presence...

I guess I don't understand Senior Stakes

1tulip

Rainmaker

John Robinson

Billie

Todd Caswell

Dave Kress

captainjack

1tulip

1tulip

tim bonnema

Nate_C

paul young

T-Pines

duckdawg27

1tulip

Gun_Dog2002

David Lo Buono

John Robinson

BJGatley

David Lo Buono

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