Transitioning from Hillman Puppy program to Lardy

RobinZClark · Jun 5, 2015

In the Hillman style of training, the ecollar is used to reinforce the behavior when the dog is doing the correct thing. In other words, the dog is nicked at a very low level when they are sitting.

In Lardy, the ecollar is used in a different fashion...to correct slow, loopy sits, the correction is sit whistle, nick, sit whistle. To correct popping the correction is back, nick, back.

Can someone who has followed this program transition explain how the dog makes this transition without becoming confused by the different application of the ecollar? Is the key that in the Hillman program the level is extremely low and in the Lardy method the level is higher? I know we can't get inside the dog's head but I am very interested in understanding how this works.

Thank you.

captainjack · Jun 5, 2015

This is a question that I've thought a lot about. In the end, I could not understand how to take a dog from Hillmann's method to Lardy's advanced training with use of indirect pressure for lack of effort or direct pressure in forcing in back. I had 4 other advanced dogs when I started my first pup on Hillmann. I didn't think I could continue the methods I'd learned in TRT without confusing either the dogs or myself. So...

I've transitioned three dogs from the Hillmann puppy Program (original version) to Mike Lardy, TRT.

When I move to Lardy, at about 8 months of age, I start from square one. Formal obedience with introduction of the heeling stick. Then move to force, collar conditioning, and so on. I hit every step in TRT without exception.

Note:
I substitute ear pinch for the collar in the Hillmann ff work as he mentions in the DVD.
Although we complete the 28 days of Hillmann at about 5 1/2 months of age, I don't go to Lardy yard work until I've caught up on the "Socialization and Introduction to Field" section of TRT. This is primarily lots of walking singles as you only get a brief intro to gunner thrown marks at the end of the Hillmann puppy DVD.
As you can imagine, a pup coming from Hillmann will have great obedience, be steady without lead, be delivering to hand, be sitting on the whistle, and be nearly ready for walking fetch. As such, I generally get to FTP in a matter of weeks rather than months. But I skip no step in the TRT sequence. With my current pup, I've moved even slower on the TRT yard work, because I want to get caught up in the field. Need to be started with simple doubles before FTP and we just haven't had time to get there due to outside factors.

So, to sum it up. Your dog will understand the transition because you don't skip any step of TRT.

RobinZClark · Jun 5, 2015

In Hillman's advanced training, does he transition to a more Lardy-like ecollar application? How many people are using Hillman's advanced training and what is their degree of success in field trials?

fax6202 · Jun 5, 2015

Great question RobinZClark, I was thinking this myself as I go through Hillmann's puppy program with my first dog; wanting to make the transition to TRT

captainjack · Jun 5, 2015

RobinZClark said:
In Hillman's advanced training, does he transition to a more Lardy-like ecollar application? How many people are using Hillman's advanced training and what is their degree of success in field trials?

Other than Bill, I don't know of any first hand that are using Hillmann Advanced & having success in FTs. I'm sure they are out there though.

Keep in mind, an extremely high percentage of field trialers that are contenders each trial they enter have dogs that are professionally trained. I don't know of any professionals using the Hillmann based approach in advanced training. Again they may be out there.

walt8@cox.net · Jun 5, 2015

Doesn't Hillmann start using much higher intensities for corrections as the training becomes more advanced? I seem to remember him talking about correcting for no-goes with 4 or even 5 on a Tri Tronics collar. Also in the swim by videos, using level 2. Hold the collar on your neck and see how any level 2 stimulation feels. Doesn't feel low.
As the dogs advance, And work continues, I don't think there's as big a span in collar levels as it may seem when you first start.
Probably too soon to see success in FT's. Takes years to see what works and what doesn't.

Walt

DL · Jun 5, 2015

I don't think most people are bothered by the feel of a low or medium 2.

joeyrhoades · Jun 5, 2015

I have been wondering this as well.

I would listen to Captain Jack. He has had sound advice for me so far. My pup is at I think lesson 14 on the hillmann puppy DVD and I was wondering about the transition.

I will have to do a little more research on the beginning of the TRT and see what I need to catch up on.

My biggest problem is having helpers to throw marks. I am not sure how I am going to work with this as I progress in training.

Mike Sale · Jun 5, 2015

I am fixing to start my 3rd puppy on Hillman program. I agree with Glen. I don't understand his CC. of FF. techniques. or how they can transition to a carr based program. So I follow everything up to the FF part of Hillman's program and then transition over right into Lardy. Also letting the pup start running marks in the field with the other dogs

Cayuga Dew · Jun 5, 2015

I too have wondered about the transition. My pup is almost 9 weeks old, and I will start Hillmann in a few weeks and eventually transition to Lardy just as CaptainJack has outlined.

As with Joey, Captainjack (Glen) has giving me sound advise.

Glen, I appreciate your posts and input immensely! Your post have no BS and are great stuff. Thank you for replying to us newbies!

God bless!

teej89 · Jun 5, 2015

oh man I was actually just going to post this! I've had my pup on Hillmann and recently after I've joined a club everyone is on lardy so I'm going to switch. He's far along in hillmann, sits on whistle, sits and stays there so I can walk out 30-40yds and will stay there until I throw the bumper(since I decided to go lardy I don't worry about him going before I say back). Now I branched off from Hillmann, haven't done the ecollar since that's later in Lardy. We been focusing on "here" and started messing around with heeling, very little, and he's been doing doubles out to +20ft like a champ.

What age do you suggest to start the TRT? He's done everything on the socialization and introduction to field multiple times. With the exception of the casting games with treats.

Casey A · Jun 5, 2015

This is great because I was literally jumping on the forum today to post this exact question. My pup just turned 6 months old and is doing really well with Hillmann. After reading many posts about the transition to Lardy by Captain Jack I decided that this was the way to go.

Thanks for the post and I am very interested to see what others have to say!

Casey

captainjack · Jun 5, 2015

teej the age to start depends on the individual dog. If you can run marks with the dog and he has good mechanics - retrieves and returns to your general area - I'd be inclined to run a lot of walking singles before starting formal obedience. While the pup matures a bit. For my current pup, I waited until he was about 8 months old. He's a big boy, but still had a lot of puppy in him at 6 months old, so I waited.

DL · Jun 5, 2015

So you all are using the ecollar on sit before you start the traffic cop like in the revised Hillman video and then later transitioning to TRT? What's the consensus on that if you all don't mind me asking?

captainjack · Jun 5, 2015

I haven't used the revised Hillmann puppy. The original uses the ecollar on the lowest setting above zero with sit prior to traffic cop. I do that and the remainder of the original - substituting ear pinch for collar pressure - before starting Lardy basics.

Edit: this is not a substitute for collar conditioning the dog to sit in Lardy basics.

Mountain Duck · Jun 6, 2015

Hillmann's Land and Water Fundamental DVDs continue the philosophy that is began in the Puppy DVD. There is a lot of emphasis on "practice" and "conditioning" to develop skills. Bill is emphatic that yard work should be fun for the dog, and not a time to burn them out with pressure, or grind them down with a task master type approach. His FTP, and single T are the distance of a hand thrown bumper, and the back pile is often re-identified to keep the dog excited and "rolling". He does not even run a TT, but does demonstrate a "Star Drill" that is similar, but random in lining and casting.

As for the collar use in "yard work".... it is similar but different. FTP, and single T require a dog to take a nick from your side, in-route, and on the whistle sit. "Back" is reinforced verbally and with the collar while the dog is in-route, i.e. "back, nick "back" And yes, no goes are the standard, higher nick, with a heel forward.

It's interesting that people love the puppy DVD, but are quick to switch to a different program. I find the Fundamental DVDs to be phenomenal, and every bit as great as the puppy DVD in the information they provide. I think they are really good for someone that has the time to put into that one dog. I feel the program is designed for the one or two dog amateur, where most other programs are adaptations of a full time Pro with a truck load of dogs to train on a daily basis.

I've used Bill's material/way of training exclusively on my current dog who will be 3 next week. He is my first field trial dog. I train alone 95% of the time, and I do it on my lunch break. My dog is QAA with a win, won a derby, and passed the only two Master tests he has ran. I realize that isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but I don't know of any other material/way of training available, that I could have applied with my resources, that would have given me those results.

BJGatley · Jun 6, 2015

The answer becomes then...read your dog and adjust coordinately.
Granted this is high level and not type 2 stuff, but hope you understand by now why a dog thinks and reacts.

bshaf · Jun 6, 2015

One of the draws to move to Graham or lardy was that more people/trainers would be able to help and are familiar with those two programs. My wife asked why I wouldn't just stick with Hillman's programs.... Seemed too simple... Might still get the hillman fundamentals to move into rather than Evan Graham. Id like to hear more reviews of his advanced programs.

DeWayne S. · Jun 6, 2015

Mountain Duck said:
Hillmann's Land and Water Fundamental DVDs continue the philosophy that is began in the Puppy DVD. There is a lot of emphasis on "practice" and "conditioning" to develop skills. Bill is emphatic that yard work should be fun for the dog, and not a time to burn them out with pressure, or grind them down with a task master type approach. His FTP, and single T are the distance of a hand thrown bumper, and the back pile is often re-identified to keep the dog excited and "rolling". He does not even run a TT, but does demonstrate a "Star Drill" that is similar, but random in lining and casting.

As for the collar use in "yard work".... it is similar but different. FTP, and single T require a dog to take a nick from your side, in-route, and on the whistle sit. "Back" is reinforced verbally and with the collar while the dog is in-route, i.e. "back, nick "back" And yes, no goes are the standard, higher nick, with a heel forward.

It's interesting that people love the puppy DVD, but are quick to switch to a different program. I find the Fundamental DVDs to be phenomenal, and every bit as great as the puppy DVD in the information they provide. I think they are really good for someone that has the time to put into that one dog. I feel the program is designed for the one or two dog amateur, where most other programs are adaptations of a full time Pro with a truck load of dogs to train on a daily basis.

I've used Bill's material/way of training exclusively on my current dog who will be 3 next week. He is my first field trial dog. I train alone 95% of the time, and I do it on my lunch break. My dog is QAA with a win, won a derby, and passed the only two Master tests he has ran. I realize that isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but I don't know of any other material/way of training available, that I could have applied with my resources, that would have given me those results.

X2. I've been on fundamentals now for a while and will stay the course. Like said above, read the dog...

captainjack · Jun 6, 2015

Mountain Duck said:
...
It's interesting that people love the puppy DVD, but are quick to switch to a different program. I find the Fundamental DVDs to be phenomenal, and every bit as great as the puppy DVD in the information they provide. ...

Should not be a surprise really. The original Hillmann puppy DVD was out for a good long while prior to land and water fundamentals. When I put my first dog through the puppy program there was no where else to go even if I wanted to. It's also pricey compared to TRT.

As more people begin to have success as you have, there will likely be less people making the switch. Its hard to beat Lardy's stuff though. Many, many people have had success following his stuff.

Transitioning from Hillman Puppy program to Lardy

RobinZClark

captainjack

RobinZClark

fax6202

captainjack

walt8@cox.net

DL

joeyrhoades

Mike Sale

Cayuga Dew

teej89

Casey A

captainjack

DL

captainjack

Mountain Duck

BJGatley

bshaf

DeWayne S.

captainjack

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