what do you require to breed? i use to see stud owners require all health testing and atleast a JH title just to prove some trainability and desire. lately i have seen fc afc studs being bred to any female with health clearances. no training and no titles and some with absolutely no pedigree.
if you own a FC AFC stud, what do you require?
Trevor Toberny
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Grady's dam, Ms Lean Mac'ce had no titles. You need to show and share what you what you know or don't know.
For someone looking at your statement in your post it would suggest some would conclude that untitled females should be bred because we would miss having great dogs like Grady if we limited ourselves to breeding only to titled bitches.
What needs to be understood by the readers of your post that your argument is supported by other factors that you may beware of though many others may not be aware of.
1. Ms Lean Mac'ce has three asterix after her name indicating qualifying placing or all age placing's in amateur or the open.
2. Her litter mate was Fargo II which was a FC AFC and produced 31 titled field trial champions be it open or amateur in the USA or Can.
3. Her first breeding was to Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow which produced a dog that made the US Derby list.
4. Chad Baker wanted a dog out of Code Blue, the number of straws was finite. Code Blue died Aug 15, 2000. He lived barely over 10 years.
5. Code Blue was producing Field Champions (25) in approximately 22 breedings. That is a a very good ratio.
6. Code Blue was throwing champions that in turn were throwing champions.
7. Chad Baker was seeing offspring of Lean Mac nicked well with Code Blue or he had the benefit of learning that from Mary Howley.
In conclusion your statement in your post is accurate, yet to some who do not study pedigree's it is misleading as it would have the readers come to right conclusion for the wrong reason.
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Grady's first breeding was to an untitled bitch, although she was running field trials and had some derby placements and ran Quals, and she had a Candlewood pedigree bred by Mary Howley. They produced 2012 NAFC Traveler, FC Dude, and 2 QAA females in that first litter
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I agree. What I neglected to say is I look at bloodlines more than just what titles a dog has. When I bought my pup, I really liked the pedigree even though the sire/dam neither had titles because the breeder doesn't compete in HT or FT. He is very knowledgeable and breeds for performance, just doesn't compete. In her 5 generation pedigree, she has 12 HOF dogs 25 FC/AFC, 4 GRHRCH. So far, I couldn't be happier with where my pup is at for being 4.5 months old. She's showing a lot of promise. If it comes to the point I want to have a litter from her, I will look for bloodlines that will cross with her moreso than a pure title search. While history of performance in the line will be important, it will also need to be a line that I feel will cross well with her lines.
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Thi was my point exactly, some dog is going to get the job done. It may as well be a good one
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i am thankful so many of the owners of fc afc males are open to breeding their fine animals.
i bred my untitled bitch last spring. "FC AFC Stinger" was my choice. i conducted discussions for over two years with a list that would be considered a "who's who" of current titled stud owners. every owner i spoke with except one, was willing to allow a natural breeding. Mr. Fred Kampo, stinger's owner, has to be one of the kindest and easiest people in the world to work with. Fred's trainer, Mike Lardy was a pleasure to work with and Mike and i "handled dogs" well together.;-) we have made very fine labrador retrievers. i hope we have made very fine performance dogs too. time will tell.
my admiration for Mr. John Lash's dog, FC AFC LB began during LB's derby career. if John remains agreeable.......LB is next!
I'm not new but this post actually made me register. It is shocking to me the responses people posted. They seem like little more than justifications. The OP is pointing out that when an owner of an FC AFC breeds to a female with little in the way of pedigree and is obviously just breeding his sire to someone who is just trying to make a buck, people such as myself can decipher these breeders and it is in turn a poor reflection of the stud owner. When we see a female bred 2 heat cycles in a row to the same FC stud, we remember and ask ourselves why the FC owner would breed to that female. And yes people like me who is not a trainer, has nothing more than dreams of owning an FC but will likely only ever have a decent meat dog that we are fond of, are also smart enough to know we aren't talking about Grady's momma or Candlewood breedings. As stated above, there are way more good, capable dogs being bred, than there are capable trainers and owners. So why is someone with a great dog breeding to these kinds of females. I understand you need to recoup money, and that why not to a certain extant if the female has clearances, but hopefully you also realize that these justifications do diminish the ability of people such as myself to buy a decent dog for a decent price too. Someone mentioned 1200 bucks above. Hell, we can't even find that anymore. There was a litter recently by a lesser known National Finalist to a female whose pedigree was not even listed or linked on his website for 2K. When I see a litter for a reasonable price by a well known FC now, I ask myself what is wrong with those pups. Probably nothing and they were likely bred by someone who knows what he's doing and has common sense. But just be aware, who you breed your FC to does have reputation consequences. I also realize if I went to more trials and got to know more people in the trial world, many of these issues would likely go away.
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When you have 100k in a male that is still competing come back and tell your sob story. And I don't see anyone breeding to junk pedigrees when I look at litters, pretty well every female has a distinguishable pedigree. I'd like to see all of the critics of Stud owners turn down 1000-2000 stud fees because the bitch isint titled. That's not realistic for the average person
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Thank you Justin.
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I do agree with you for the most part, don't see a lot of "nothing pedigree" bitches getting bred to FC AFC and it really is stud owner's choice, but, also understand where some might wonder, WTH? See a female with this pedigree bred repeatedly to the same FC AFC and you might go, huh, or think, what a waste? Bitch has no titles, never ran anything herself, (name of actual female deleted). So, should that bitch have been bred to another "nothing" dog or was it better to have bred "up"? Some would ask why the bitch was bred at all, but that's another thread for Trevor. ;-) I can see both viewpoints. But not going to crucify stud owners, their dog, their choice.
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I would not breed to that dog personally, if the bitch isint out of proven working lines it doesn't intereet me very much. At sone point you have to draw the line and that is over it for me. Honestly I have only been approached a couple of times by people with a pedigree that looked like that, I respectfully declined the breeding. I certainly won't chastise a stud dog owner for breeding to whatever they choose though. Training fees are high and every little bit helps. Everyone wants to breed to 100 point dogs, NFC's and the like. It takes a ton of money to make it happen, not to mention the school bus full that came before.
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Admittedly I don't look at litters often due to me being an impulse buyer. How often are pedigrees like that getting through to your bigger name dogs? That pedigree is certainly not much to look at, lol.
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I don't know, Justin, I just posted that one because I knew about it and it was a good example of what I think LJS meant, I don't recall seeing too many like that getting bred to FC AFC. But throw up a website with some professional photos, lots of fluff with no real info, become a social media expert, and one can spin anything these days. No pedigree? No problem!
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No doubt about that, there are some good salesman and very uneducated buyers out there. Facebook has certainly brought it to the forefront.
So say she isn't out of "proven working lines" BUT she has health clearances and was amateur/newbie trained and still able to get a MH title with Q placements? You still would turn your nose up to her? Pedigree overrides performance?
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I never said that, I'm assuming the female had no accomplishments to her name forcthexsake if this thread.
I wasn't implying that you said that, not my intention.
I was asking a separate but related question. Would you allow a breeding to that dog if her performance was as stated?
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Rarely does a pedigree like that come with health certs or titles, but if the person has both, I see nothing wrong with doing the breeding. They are upgrading and there have been no pedigree FC's. I ask people how many they have deposits for before breeding, why they are doing the breeding, how they plan to market the pups, and how much do they think they are going to sell them for. If people have a JH on an FC breeding, they are not going to get $2K a puppy. They are welcome to try but there are a lot of nice breedings out there for much less.
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Don't forget the T-shirts. Folks be aware and do your due diligence. Buying females to breed has always been done, but most are put up for sale because they have some kind of problem, and if it is health problems and they have a nice pedigree, well beware.
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If the bitch was MH/QAA, different story, don't know too many stud owners would turn that down, but that's not the case of the female whose pedigree is shown and that Justin and I were discussing.
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