Hi there. New to the site; just a lurker on occasion. Also new to the sport. Have a question about use of the term "pressure" in field training and trying to understand what that means and the importance of it. I've never quite understood it and when I look it up online I read terms like "physical domination" and such. I have often heard people say "you need to teach a dog to turn off the pressure" and when I've asked what that means, I've never received an answer. Thanks!
Pressure
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I wish, BJG...
A lot of this (a tough dog, one with true "bottom", a non-quitter that wants the retrieve more than anything in life...) that is so much heredity. I have 2 dogs. One is smart as can be, very birdy... an incredible hunting dog. Went to the MN. But could not qualify the next year. She got to the point where she could read that water triple double blind (you name the concept) like the screen you're reading off of right now. She just didn't want to do it enough. So she is one heck of a hunting dog right now. Nothing incredible in her pedigree. Just a good little dog.
Then I got Ram Jet Rocket Dog. She's young. We don't know everything about her and can't tell the future. But it is clear, she'd rather die than not get the bird. (We have to watch her close in adverse conditions, because she just won't quit or slow down.)
Both went through same training program.
I know we aren't talking about nature/nurture. And I agree mostly with what you said. There is just a lot more than the training program per se that builds drive.
A lot of this (a tough dog, one with true "bottom", a non-quitter that wants the retrieve more than anything in life...) that is so much heredity. I have 2 dogs. One is smart as can be, very birdy... an incredible hunting dog. Went to the MN. But could not qualify the next year. She got to the point where she could read that water triple double blind (you name the concept) like the screen you're reading off of right now. She just didn't want to do it enough. So she is one heck of a hunting dog right now. Nothing incredible in her pedigree. Just a good little dog.
Then I got Ram Jet Rocket Dog. She's young. We don't know everything about her and can't tell the future. But it is clear, she'd rather die than not get the bird. (We have to watch her close in adverse conditions, because she just won't quit or slow down.)
Both went through same training program.
I know we aren't talking about nature/nurture. And I agree mostly with what you said. There is just a lot more than the training program per se that builds drive.
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Maybe the confusion is that "turn off the pressure" is a term used two ways, one is concrete and one is a generalization. In terms of FF, it is literal. Ear is being pinched (or toe squeezed, or whatever) and the instant the object is in the dog's mouth... MAGIC! The sensation is gone. Very, very quickly, the dog literally figures out how to turn off that source of pressure. Then there are the more abstract sources of pressure that have been discussed.
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I wish, BJG...
A lot of this (a tough dog, one with true "bottom", a non-quitter that wants the retrieve more than anything in life...) that is so much heredity. I have 2 dogs. One is smart as can be, very birdy... an incredible hunting dog. Went to the MN. But could not qualify the next year. She got to the point where she could read that water triple double blind (you name the concept) like the screen you're reading off of right now. She just didn't want to do it enough. So she is one heck of a hunting dog right now. Nothing incredible in her pedigree. Just a good little dog.
Then I got Ram Jet Rocket Dog. She's young. We don't know everything about her and can't tell the future. But it is clear, she'd rather die than not get the bird. (We have to watch her close in adverse conditions, because she just won't quit or slow down.)
I agree with...
During that time we get to know the dog's strengths and weaknesses and work on those to their limits and train in fairness.
The advantage is we know the weaknesses and will setup to help dog and us.
MY copper penny.
Sure thing BJ,
I make my pups "understand" me at 8 weeks old and they won't quit when it's cold, he's tired, he's confused, or there is a15 foot snarling alligator between him and that 15 pound wounded Canadian Goose!!!
I'd suggest the next one be a double.
Sweet dreams!!
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Sure thing BJ,
I make my pups "understand" me at 8 weeks old and they won't quit when it's cold, he's tired, he's confused, or there is a15 foot snarling alligator between him and that 15 pound wounded Canadian Goose!!!
I'd suggest the next one be a double.
Sweet dreams!!
I believe sweet dreams to you Marc. OK
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Pressure is directly related to bite force in pack animals!! Pack leaders can put bite pressure on the neck of lower ranked animals in varying degrees and depending on severity of the violation. We use pressure in artificial ways! E collar, pinch collar, choke collar all represent natural pack pressure!! Ear pinch, and toe hitch represent pressure similarly.. You can be nice all day long to your dog, but without teaching pressure you will have a hole in your training and dogs fall thru holes at one point or another!
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Pressure is pretty much anything that can influence a dog, so collar pressure, pinch pressure, training pressure, but in another way mental pressure associated with any obstacles a dog might have to confront to do his job- cover, multiple marks, distance, swimming across multiple water entries and exits, swimming in cold water, complying with commands. To do his job a dog must learn the proper way to deal with these pressures or learn how to "turn off it off". It is basically incorporated into any training or action that the dog doesn't just choose to do on it's own. Formal Trainers take this a step further, by structuralizing the pressure relationship, they incorporate controlled pressure into their training, so they can teach a dog the proper way to revolve- recover from it. They do this even if the dog complies with the commands, because it's not about doing the command; it's about learning a pressure relationship for later work. It's usually done in FFing and collar conditioning, as this is a controlled environment, where you can, apply pressure and teach proper responses. Basically pressure>retrieve=turn pressure off, pressure>sit=turns pressure off, teaching the dog that the proper action on his part turns the pressure off. The relationship is tuaght first direct where it's easier to control reactions, then develop into indirect as the dog transitions into uncontrolled environments, greater distances, more technical work, where control erodes, and mental pressure from outside influences increases. The trainer now has a tool to enforce commands and the dog understands-has the tool to "turn off the pressure" through proper action. A dog will run into pressure in everyday training; if you haven't taught the dog how to respond, the dog will succumb, shut-down, avoid, disobey, in someway not reliably do the commands he has been taught. It's important to teach a dog to "turn off pressure" or preform the proper actions, when confronted with obstacles. Basically they learn to continue doing their job regardless of what they run into. Pretty necessary if you ever hope to develop a dog that is reliable for working in any conditions. Desire is great, having a dog that wants to please is great, but even that pleasing great dog at some point will run into something that he doesn't choose to do, a working dog is taught that he's still responsible for his work regardless. Handlers-trainers convey this by teaching a pressure relationship, so they can fairly enforce commands & work ethic. After-all it would be pretty unfair-confusing to a dog to try enforce later if a dog wasn't taught a relationship or how to "turn it off" earlier.
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Based on this "a working dog is taught that he's still responsible for his work regardless, any working dog that refuses to perform properly hasn't been taught......."he's still responsible for his actions". Not exactly sure of ever thinking "Hey, it's not my fault, you haven't been paying attention." Ultimately, the trainer did not or cannot develop that fail safe behavior. Maybe the dog just will not be able to? Is it the trainer or always the dog?
I do believe that dogs with little say so about a training process develop their own coping skills to deal with pressure........few are productive in the skills column. Keeping a dog fairly challenged, happy, active and rewarded tends to avoid those moments where negative coping skills can fester. "Or else, regardless and because I said so" should not become the "go to" image of a teaching program. Don't forget the finger pointed at a dog has three fingers pointing back at the trainer.
The teaching trainer learns he is responsible for his work regardless.
I do believe that dogs with little say so about a training process develop their own coping skills to deal with pressure........few are productive in the skills column. Keeping a dog fairly challenged, happy, active and rewarded tends to avoid those moments where negative coping skills can fester. "Or else, regardless and because I said so" should not become the "go to" image of a teaching program. Don't forget the finger pointed at a dog has three fingers pointing back at the trainer.
The teaching trainer learns he is responsible for his work regardless.
Man!! I swear you guys sit back a drum up a mental picture of a trainer burnin the toe nails off the dog DAILY for EVERYTHING he does on the highest collar setting there is!!
C-Mon,,, Use some common sense... You get the dog thru FF, the Yard, and you start running cold blinds... At first the blinds are straight forward, you use attrition, only correct on a "sit" that the dog understands very well.. Takes very little collar intensity....
You try and keep your dailey training organized,and have a plan on what you want to work on, that builds from the previous day...
There MAY be a point in that training, where a dog breaks "Sit",, takes a wrong cast, refuses a whistle, and requires a correction,,,,, But why do some of you think that trainers are turnin the collar up,,and BURNING on continuous till the dog caves??
Thats not what you taught in the preperation to get the dog to the field...
As dog get better, and more experienced,, they get to a point where correction is seldom needed, or if it is,, the level of intensity is low,because the dog becomes conditioned..
I swear some of you have a really silly mental picture of what you think people do with pressure..
I am no angle,, I have been unfair with the collar, and pressure for sure.. But like any mistake,, you learn from it and move on...As does the dog!! Cupcake isnt gonna be damaged for life... IF THE DOG HAS BEEN CONDITIONED CORRECTLY!!!
If I have my dog sittin near a road on a "sit,,, and she decides to break as a car is approaching,, She is gonna get the quickest Most severe level of correction I can give to get her arse on the ground... She Aint gonna like it,,,, But at least the next day,, she has a chance to forget about it..
On the other hand,,, the dog is running a blind, and is given a factor that she is trying hard to fight, but makes bad decisions taking casts given or what ever... She is trying though.. THE WAY I BLOW A WHISTLE MAY be pressure enough to get the change in direction, or attitude to get her through the blind.. Why do some of you IMMEDIATELY think when someone mentions a correction,,you friggin default is a high 6???
DANG!!
This is whats wrong with discussing this stuff on paper on the INTERNET......... Better to come train,, and then witness whats really going on,, instead of jumping to some stupid conclusion...
Gooser
C-Mon,,, Use some common sense... You get the dog thru FF, the Yard, and you start running cold blinds... At first the blinds are straight forward, you use attrition, only correct on a "sit" that the dog understands very well.. Takes very little collar intensity....
You try and keep your dailey training organized,and have a plan on what you want to work on, that builds from the previous day...
There MAY be a point in that training, where a dog breaks "Sit",, takes a wrong cast, refuses a whistle, and requires a correction,,,,, But why do some of you think that trainers are turnin the collar up,,and BURNING on continuous till the dog caves??
Thats not what you taught in the preperation to get the dog to the field...
As dog get better, and more experienced,, they get to a point where correction is seldom needed, or if it is,, the level of intensity is low,because the dog becomes conditioned..
I swear some of you have a really silly mental picture of what you think people do with pressure..
I am no angle,, I have been unfair with the collar, and pressure for sure.. But like any mistake,, you learn from it and move on...As does the dog!! Cupcake isnt gonna be damaged for life... IF THE DOG HAS BEEN CONDITIONED CORRECTLY!!!
If I have my dog sittin near a road on a "sit,,, and she decides to break as a car is approaching,, She is gonna get the quickest Most severe level of correction I can give to get her arse on the ground... She Aint gonna like it,,,, But at least the next day,, she has a chance to forget about it..
On the other hand,,, the dog is running a blind, and is given a factor that she is trying hard to fight, but makes bad decisions taking casts given or what ever... She is trying though.. THE WAY I BLOW A WHISTLE MAY be pressure enough to get the change in direction, or attitude to get her through the blind.. Why do some of you IMMEDIATELY think when someone mentions a correction,,you friggin default is a high 6???
DANG!!
This is whats wrong with discussing this stuff on paper on the INTERNET......... Better to come train,, and then witness whats really going on,, instead of jumping to some stupid conclusion...
Gooser
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I agree.
"Don't tell me about your friend who thinks choke collars, heeling sticks, and electronic collars are cruel and unnecessary, so he uses weenies. He probably doesn't hunt, or else he has a dog that doesn't share our passion for October and all the birds that go with it." Mike Lardy; The Retriever Journal, February/March 2009
Does with drive sometimes break sit, slip whistles, etc. they're dogs.
Gooser, you have grown by leaps and bounds. Well done. But you are going to ruin your reputation as the class clown if you keep this up.
Sorry!! I stubbed my ice cold toe right before I wrote the last post!! I think it broked!
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I think those people were wrong by implying that to FF or not FF is the only way to teach a dog how to turn off pressure, it's just the easiest way to start that teaching process. It's not the only way, it just works so well and for such a great variety of dogs and trainers, and without negative repercussions, that most of us see no good reason to reinvent the wheel. If you are sensing some testy-ness from some of the posters, it's because we often get innocent seeming post from new posters who ask a loaded question that turns out to be asked just to promote an anti-conventional training agenda, then the arguments start.
So,, search out a reputable Professional dog trainer that trains using a method with Force being the foundation.. Offer to spend your free time throwing birds for He/She, and in return,, you get to work your dog into the mix..
Find a Pro that TRAINS dog for a living,, and not makes Videos for a living,,then get off the internet,,and quit askin training advice from people you dont have a clue about!!
Like many here on this board,, after they meet Gooser in person,, they drive straight home and put me on ignore!
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You will learn the benefits some day hopefully sooner that later.
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I agree.Gooser, you have grown by leaps and bounds. Well done.
And kudos for stepping up, wanting to get better, keeping an open mind and not being so intimidated by the big, bad FT people.
If more would do that, they might be pleasantly surprised.
I know, they could learn something.
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