Tip To Overcome Self-Inflicted OB Issue (Whistle Sit)

Maddog10 · Mar 6, 2016

So I think I've ran across my first fundamental error as a trainer. My pup and I have been working on FTP and casting back to the pile from the front sit. All is going well there and we aren't having any issues, so it was time in my program introduce the whistle sit so that I can start stopping him during pile work, eventually working our way up to single T.

We began learning the whistle sit yesterday and he quickly learned that the whistle meant sit, but the issue we have is him running through the whistle on his way to me. I know it's my own fault for overlooking this step in our formal OB training, because up until now he has never been asked to stop before getting to my side after I command "here." He not only runs through the whistle but will also run through a verbal "sit" as well. All of this is with no bumpers, just basic OB training like we did before.

Currently I sit him at my side with the whistle. Then I walk 20 yards or so, command here, and try to stop him with a sharp whistle and strong verbal "SIT" when he is halfway to me, but he runs through it and sits when he gets to me. I'm not using any collar pressure at this point because I know that he is unsure of what I want, but my question to you guys is how should I go about clearly conveying what I want him to do? His "here" and "sit" commands are very reliable, but he's been conditioned over the past few months that "here" means get to me quickly and that seems to override the sit command in his mind.

Any tips to overcome this issue that I've brought upon myself?

Cass · Mar 6, 2016

Whistle - Nick - Whistle. Voila! I also like to raise my hand when I hit the whistle so he knows it means sit your butt down.

captainjack · Mar 6, 2016

Maddog10 said:
...We began learning the whistle sit yesterday and he quickly learned that the whistle meant sit, but the issue we have is him running through the whistle on his way to me. I know it's my own fault for overlooking this step in our formal OB training, because up until now he has never been asked to stop before getting to my side after I command "here." He not only runs through the whistle but will also run through a verbal "sit" as well. All of this is with no bumpers, just basic OB training like we did before.

Currently I sit him at my side with the whistle. Then I walk 20 yards or so, command here, and try to stop him with a sharp whistle and strong verbal "SIT" when he is halfway to me, but he runs through it and sits when he gets to me. I'm not using any collar pressure at this point because I know that he is unsure of what I want, but my question to you guys is how should I go about clearly conveying what I want him to do? His "here" and "sit" commands are very reliable, but he's been conditioned over the past few months that "here" means get to me quickly and that seems to override the sit command in his mind.

Any tips to overcome this issue that I've brought upon myself?

You should not believe that you taught whistle sit in one day.

You need the dog on a long lead and go back to obedience with whistle sit to front finish. This is demonstrated best in Lardy's ecollar conditioning dvd. Sit dog in front finish, one or two yards, not 20 from you. Here-jerk-toot-jerk up. It takes practice to maintain lead control so that you can enforce the sit to whistle with a jerk up on the lead. If you have good coordination, you can extend tvidms out to about 20 feet or sowhile maintaining lead control.

When you get the desired response, you need to avoid the temptation of trying to stop from 20 yards off lead. Go again to a couple yards and work to extend from there.

Maddog10 · Mar 6, 2016

captainjack said:
You should not believe that you taught whistle sit in one day.

You need the dog on a long lead and go back to obedience with whistle sit to front finish. This is demonstrated best in Lardy's ecollar conditioning dvd. Sit dog in front finish, one or two yards, not 20 from you. Here-jerk-toot-jerk up. It takes practice to maintain lead control so that you can enforce the sit to whistle with a jerk up on the lead. If you have good coordination, you can extend tvidms out to about 20 feet or sowhile maintaining lead control.

When you get the desired response, you need to avoid the temptation of trying to stop from 20 yards off lead. Go again to a couple yards and work to extend from there.

I didn't believe that I taught whistle sit in a day, although he clearly shows that he knows it means sit after two days. I just knew the problem was there when he would ignore a verbal sit, because he obeys that command 100% of the time when he's at my side. If he was stopping on a verbal but running through a whistle then it would indicate he just wasn't sure what the whistle meant yet, but the fact that he ignores a verbal let's me know it's an OB issue.

I think probably the quickest and most effective way to teach it would be to drop the whistle and go back to verbal sit trying to stop him short. If he runs through it, "sit", knick, "sit", etc. I'm just hesitant to apply many knicks to my dog before seeking out some advice on this issue. The bottom line is he knows what "sit" means and he's ignoring it, but just the fact that I've never asked this from him makes me cautious to start knicking him just yet. Then once he is proficient at sitting on a verbal, bring the whistle back out again. Thoughts?

Tobias · Mar 6, 2016

run a long line from his collar, around a post, and back to you. Then you can control the 'sit' in a more direct/physical way. Or have another person holding the long line and letting line out as the dog comes to you. When you whistle or command the dog to sit, the person then stops the dog from moving forward with the rope.
Start with verbal, then verbal/whistle combined, then whistle progressing as the dog shows proficiency in compliance to each type of command.

DarrinGreene · Mar 6, 2016

Teach him to whistle sit 3' in front of you before you try to do it on the run at 30'

Rob DeHaven · Mar 6, 2016

You have to remember that your dog is programmed to sit beside you. Even though he always sits when you say sit it's always been beside you.

Maddog10 · Mar 6, 2016

Tobias said:
run a long line from his collar, around a post, and back to you. Then you can control the 'sit' in a more direct/physical way. Or have another person holding the long line and letting line out as the dog comes to you. When you whistle or command the dog to sit, the person then stops the dog from moving forward with the rope.
Start with verbal, then verbal/whistle combined, then whistle progressing as the dog shows proficiency in compliance to each type of command.

I like that idea. Thanks.

DarrinGreene said:
Teach him to whistle sit 3' in front of you before you try to do it on the run at 30'

Makes sense, and essentially that's what I tried to do but I'm sure I extended the distance too quickly. It's definitely the running that breaks his focus on what he's being asked to do. Earlier we were doing a marking session and walking from one location to the next. He was just free to roam at the time and was probably standing 50 or 60 feet out in front of me. I hit the whistle to see how he'd react and he immediately put his butt on the ground. I still plan to start with a verbal sit, but there's no doubt he's made the association with the whistle. Now I just have to teach him that running doesn't mean ignoring commands.

Maddog10 · Mar 6, 2016

It's obviously an issue that would have been best addressed during formal OB and reinforced through CC, but being a first time trainer I overlooked it. Instead I've pretty much conditioned him that "here" means get to my side no matter what, which is good but also taught him to ignore anything going on between the time I say "here" and the time he gets to my side.

Bridget Bodine · Mar 6, 2016

You should NOT be trying to sit him at all on pile work yet. When he is thoroughly conditioned to sit/whistle in the yard coming toward you and sitting remotely , then you can try stopping the dog on the way back from the pile. When you have him stopping on the way back then you try stopping him on the way out close to you, 20-30 feet. DO not mix whistle stops with FTP initially

Maddog10 · Mar 6, 2016

Bridget Bodine said:
You should NOT be trying to sit him at all on pile work yet. When he is thoroughly conditioned to sit/whistle in the yard coming toward you and sitting remotely , then you can try stopping the dog on the way back from the pile. When you have him stopping on the way back then you try stopping him on the way out close to you, 20-30 feet. DO not mix whistle stops with FTP initially

Thanks. I haven't tried stopping him during pile work at all, and won't until he shows that his is proficient at doing it without any bumpers involved. At this point we are solely working on it from an OB standpoint with no bumpers. Sit, walk away, command here and try to stop him in route. Then once I feel he is ready to move it to pile work, my program recommends stopping him on the way back from the pile first, just as you mentioned.

captainjack · Mar 7, 2016

Maddog10 said:
I didn't believe that I taught whistle sit in a day, although he clearly shows that he knows it means sit after two days. I just knew the problem was there when he would ignore a verbal sit, because he obeys that command 100% of the time when he's at my side. If he was stopping on a verbal but running through a whistle then it would indicate he just wasn't sure what the whistle meant yet, but the fact that he ignores a verbal let's me know it's an OB issue.

I think probably the quickest and most effective way to teach it would be to drop the whistle and go back to verbal sit trying to stop him short. If he runs through it, "sit", knick, "sit", etc. I'm just hesitant to apply many knicks to my dog before seeking out some advice on this issue. The bottom line is he knows what "sit" means and he's ignoring it, but just the fact that I've never asked this from him makes me cautious to start knicking him just yet. Then once he is proficient at sitting on a verbal, bring the whistle back out again. Thoughts?

My thoughts are what I posted initially. Good luck.

polmaise · Mar 7, 2016

captainjack said:
You should not believe that you taught whistle sit in one day.

You need the dog on a long lead and go back to obedience with whistle sit to front finish. This is demonstrated best in Lardy's ecollar conditioning dvd. Sit dog in front finish, one or two yards, not 20 from you. Here-jerk-toot-jerk up. It takes practice to maintain lead control so that you can enforce the sit to whistle with a jerk up on the lead. If you have good coordination, you can extend tvidms out to about 20 feet or sowhile maintaining lead control.

When you get the desired response, you need to avoid the temptation of trying to stop from 20 yards off lead. Go again to a couple yards and work to extend from there.

Yea, well 'Sit ' would mean sit , and 'stop whistle' would mean something like 'STOP'. ? ..
I suppose .
Personally I use 'Apples' ! ? ,,,well that's what I call it instead of any one else . Reckon I should market it ?.. Whistle sit in One day is possible !..conditioning to whistle sit requires repetition of that one day..Your long line is not required ,unless you have a dog that has NO obedience

..Any jerk or correction is an admission of previous failures in simple obedience ? ;-)

IdahoLabs · Mar 7, 2016

He is obeying... "SIT" = sit next to handler. He's trying to obey you and is coming as quickly as possible.

On a slightly more serious note.... no, actually, that's still what I want to say. You're going from 3rd grade math to college calculus and bypassing everything in between. Take it step by step and you'll be much happier with the result.

Maddog10 · Mar 7, 2016

IdahoLabs said:
He is obeying... "SIT" = sit next to handler. He's trying to obey you and is coming as quickly as possible.

On a slightly more serious note.... no, actually, that's still what I want to say. You're going from 3rd grade math to college calculus and bypassing everything in between. Take it step by step and you'll be much happier with the result.

I'm following my program exactly as it's laid out by a reputable professional. I don't mean to seem as if I'm disregarding your post. I just think the 3rd grade to calculus analogy is a bit exaggerated. I have a dog that has learned a tremendous amount in 3 to 4 months already, so I don't expect teaching him to sit on the whistle to be some incredibly daunting task. I was just looking for ways to do it without applying more pressure than necessary.

I guess I don't see what steps I'm skipping? Aside from acknowledging the fact that in my own ignorance I didn't teach it properly the first time through, I have taught each step exactly as it's laid out before me. I have a dog that can be sent from my side and cast each direction from the front sit position with very few mistakes. It seems to me (and my program) that teaching the whistle sit is the next step in the process in order to be able to advance to the single T.

captainjack · Mar 7, 2016

polmaise said:
Yea, well 'Sit ' would mean sit , and 'stop whistle' would mean something like 'STOP'. ? ..
I suppose .
Personally I use 'Apples' ! ? ,,,well that's what I call it instead of any one else . Reckon I should market it ?.. Whistle sit in One day is possible !..conditioning to whistle sit requires repetition of that one day..Your long line is not required ,unless you have a dog that has NO obedience ..Any jerk or correction is an admission of previous failures in simple obedience ? ;-)

Tell Lardy

IdahoLabs · Mar 7, 2016

Maddog10 said:
I'm following my program exactly as it's laid out by a reputable professional. I don't mean to seem as if I'm disregarding your post. I just think the 3rd grade to calculus analogy is a bit exaggerated. I have a dog that has learned a tremendous amount in 3 to 4 months already, so I don't expect teaching him to sit on the whistle to be some incredibly daunting task. I was just looking for ways to do it without applying more pressure than necessary.

I guess I don't see what steps I'm skipping? Aside from acknowledging the fact that in my own ignorance I didn't teach it properly the first time through, I have taught each step exactly as it's laid out before me. I have a dog that can be sent from my side and cast each direction from the front sit position with very few mistakes. It seems to me (and my program) that teaching the whistle sit is the next step in the process in order to be able to advance to the single T.

It's not that it's some incredibly daunting task.... it's that right now, to him, "SIT" literally means either at heel or in front of you. Dogs don't automatically realize that SIT can potentially happen at heel, in front of you, from 10' away, from 100' away... he's not deliberately disobeying, he's just obeying the command the way he understands it. For instance - try telling your dog to kennel (or some other routine task) tomorrow - from the opposite side or while using an opposite hand from what you typically do, and you may find your dog relies on body language and routine far more than the words. Find a way to help him understand sit can happen in other locations and he'll probably put 2 and 2 together in a matter of days without any problem after that. With enough pressure you can get your point across also - "WTF just happened?? I'd better stop and figure out why I just got burned" - but there are better ways of teaching a new concept, after all....

Also- when teaching this- stopping after being called or while returning from a retrieve is one of the more challenging concepts to a green dog. If you can ask for it at a lower rate of speed initially.... take an off-leash walk, for instance... you may be happier.

Maddog10 · Mar 7, 2016

IdahoLabs said:
It's not that it's some incredibly daunting task.... it's that right now, to him, "SIT" literally means either at heel or in front of you. Dogs don't automatically realize that SIT can potentially happen at heel, in front of you, from 10' away, from 100' away... he's not deliberately disobeying, he's just obeying the command the way he understands it. For instance - try telling your dog to kennel (or some other routine task) tomorrow - from the opposite side or while using an opposite hand from what you typically do, and you may find your dog relies on body language and routine far more than the words. Find a way to help him understand sit can happen in other locations and he'll probably put 2 and 2 together in a matter of days without any problem after that. With enough pressure you can get your point across also - "WTF just happened?? I'd better stop and figure out why I just got burned" - but there are better ways of teaching a new concept, after all....

Also- when teaching this- stopping after being called or while returning from a retrieve is one of the more challenging concepts to a green dog. If you can ask for it at a lower rate of speed initially.... take an off-leash walk, for instance... you may be happier.

I'm with you now. I appreciate the explanation.

There's no doubt that the concept of having to stop after hearing the "here" command is brand new to him. He's been conditioned for months to run to my side when I command "here" and he does it very reliably. Now all of sudden I'm giving the same command but wanting something different and it's throwing him off. The problem I was facing was that aside from collar pressure (which I don't really want to use until he understands what I want), I had no means of enforcing the "sit" command while he's running at me. I can yell "NO" but I can't do anything to stop him. I think my first line of action is to use a partner that can stop him with a lead, as one of the posters mentioned earlier in this thread. To me that seems like the least amount of pressure to teach the response I want. I'm just going to have to make sure my partner has a good set of gloves because when I say "here" he's coming in a hurry!

DarrinGreene · Mar 7, 2016

polmaise said:
Yea, well 'Sit ' would mean sit , and 'stop whistle' would mean something like 'STOP'. ? ..
I suppose .
Personally I use 'Apples' ! ? ,,,well that's what I call it instead of any one else . Reckon I should market it ?.. Whistle sit in One day is possible !..conditioning to whistle sit requires repetition of that one day..Your long line is not required ,unless you have a dog that has NO obedience ..Any jerk or correction is an admission of previous failures in simple obedience ? ;-)

you're assuming the dog knew how to sit somewhere other than at the handler's side prior to adding the whistle Robert. I agree - teaching the new cue to a dog who already knows the behavior - give me a day and 2-3 sessions and I can do that but... if they don't know the behavior... well, now it's oranges mate.

Steve Shaver · Mar 7, 2016

I have posted this before and it aint the way Lardy would do it but I'm telling you this is without a doubt the simple easiest way to teach sit whistle. In fact I think it is the easiest thing to teach in dog training period. Forget the rope, forget the collar and forget having someone else help by holding the rope. No pressure what so ever. In the past I have taught the sit whistle separate from anything else. I have used the whistle teaching a pup to sit for the first time but now I consider all that a HUGE waste of time. I no longer teach the sit whistle period. My dogs never even hear a whistle until they start 3 handed casting at approx. 9 months old. Sit whistle is simply taught as a by-product of 3 handed casting by blowing the whistle with the dog already sitting before every cast and on a front finish return from that cast. I have never once had a dog not stop and sit on a whistle the first time being stopped in route to the pile by teaching this way. A slow or loopy sit can be cleaned up with a collar nick in single and double T. The thought of teaching the dog to sit on a whistle never even enters my mind or the dogs for that matter they just do it. Whistle just means watch me somethings gonna happen. Probably sounds unorthodox and risky to some but try it I guarantee you'll like it

Tip To Overcome Self-Inflicted OB Issue (Whistle Sit)

Maddog10

Cass

captainjack

Maddog10

Tobias

DarrinGreene

Rob DeHaven

Maddog10

Maddog10

Bridget Bodine

Maddog10

captainjack

polmaise

IdahoLabs

Maddog10

captainjack

IdahoLabs

Maddog10

DarrinGreene

Steve Shaver

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