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Stick to the pile?

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Jruss

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Started stick to pile today gave multiple freebees when I used stick pressure he would spin and sit. I simplified it multiple times and when we got 15' from the pile I got the desired responds from both remote sit and side send. My question is should I review stick fetch or just move on to coller to the pile or review stick to the pile tell we get the desired response from 30 or 40 yards to the pile?
 
#2 · (Edited)
After the first few taps with the stick to the butt try hitting the stick just behind him as he is leaving to go to the pile. Makes him feel that a snappy response lets him escape the pressure. If he catches on, you should see even a strong compulsion to GO when you say 'Back'. Even if you have to start at 15 ft and then work back, he should catch on.
 
#3 ·
Keep working it until you get the desired response. You want to get the same response from collar to the pile, so you need the stick to the pile to work so you can build.

My pup, I have issues with the collar. I have to barely stimulate or the pup will shut down on me. Stick to the pile was easy. Once she started to turn from the front finish, i would swat the ground and she would scoot on out quickly. the collar she wanted to stop or slow down. but i worked through it and she understands the required response now.

First time trainer and it is taking way longer for me to train this pup than most because we are learning together.

Just my 2 cents.

Joey
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Yessir I have yet to make contact with him. When it would hit the ground behind him and we were 30 yards to 20 feet I would get the spin and sit. At 15' he would really dig out to the pile after pressure. Just not sure if I should dwell on distance or move on beings I got the desired responds.
 
#5 ·
Describe your timing of the stick pressure.
Where is the dog (just starting turn, turned, turned and a few feet)?
What are you doing?
What are you saying?
 
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#7 ·
Jruss said:
Timing is when he is completely turned and starting momentum to the pile. Cast verbal back stick on the ground directly behind him fallowed with verbal back.
Click to expand...
I think you are late. I like to stick (with buggy whip) as the dog turns. And the 2nd verbal back is almost simultaneous with the stick.
 
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#9 ·
Also consider the fact that you have probably used the stick to reinforce the sit command so his natural response (at this point) is to get his ass on the ground when he hears it coming. Change the timing and ease up on the amount of forcefulness of both the swing and the voice until he gets the idea. He's probably just trying to be a good dog.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Didn't work. Used the pressure quicker and second back as stated coused a huge flair and tryed looping behind me to the discard pile. Still getting a good responce at 10 or 15'. I think I will give him a break on yard work and then back track tell I find the hole I left in him. He has been pretty solid up tell this point. Figured the wheels would fall off soner or later:)
 
#12 ·
That has to be the first time anyone walked outside and tried something - came right back a reported!

I'll bet if you do 50 reps (over several sessions) at 10 feet you can get to 20 or 30 feet pretty easily after that..
 
#13 ·
Jruss said:
My question is should I review stick fetch or just move on to coller to the pile or review stick to the pile tell we get the desired response from 30 or 40 yards to the pile?
Click to expand...
You did not mention if the dog was collar FFed. If so, I would move on with collar stimulation.
Keep in mind that there is a school of thought that forcing to a pile is just FF at gradual longer distances. The stimulus is only applied at the send, cast or when the dog is quitting and not when the dog is moving away from you towards the pile.

Tim
 
#14 ·
Jruss said:
Didn't work. Used the pressure quicker and second back as stated coused a huge flair and tryed looping behind me to the discard pile. Still getting a good responce at 10 or 15'. I think I will give him a break on yard work and then back track tell I find the hole I left in him. He has been pretty solid up tell this point. Figured the wheels would fall off soner or later:)
Click to expand...
If it was poor timing, you have to undo the damage (for lack of a better term I would say your dog is damaged), before progressing. Whatever is the cause, the dog now has an expectation that must be addressed. Simplifying, more freebies, etc. and restoring the correct timing. This is true of any trainer induced hiccup that you encounter.

Another thing I'd look at is how many times you let the dog go without the stick vs with the stick. For example, I run the pile for several days with no pressure at all. When momentum is good, I add the stick, but maybe only 3-4 times or less even in a session. Likely making contact only a couple times. Once the dog is scooting to avoid the stick, I move on. Usually just do one session, then will do one time when I intro collar. You mentioned the dog flared and went to the discard pile. Not all bad IMO. Creating compulsion to get a bumper, just need to get dog to understand which bumper.

What do you do in response to the refusal? Ear pinch to pile?

What if you sit the dog 15 feet from the pile and 15-20 feet from you (beyond stick reach)?

What does he do when you send from your side?

Working through this is what training is all about. When you come out the other side, both you and the dog will be better for the experience. Very satisfying when the breakthrough comes.
 
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Discussion starter · #15 ·
Tim Carrion said:
You did not mention if the dog was collar FFed. If so, I would move on with collar stimulation.
Keep in mind that there is a school of thought that forcing to a pile is just FF at gradual longer distances. The stimulus is only applied at the send, cast or when the dog is quitting and not when the dog is moving away from you towards the pile.

Tim
Click to expand...
Yessir he has been ff with the coller. Stick fetch went well it really got him digging for the bumper. But it just don't seem to be transferring to pile work. When I give him freebees to the pile he really digs in to get to it at any distance. Its just the stick pressure out past 15 foot that's confusing him.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
captainjack said:
If it was poor timing, you have to undo the damage (for lack of a better term I would say your dog is damaged), before progressing. Whatever is the cause, the dog now has an expectation that must be addressed. Simplifying, more freebies, etc. and restoring the correct timing. This is true of any trainer induced hiccup that you encounter.

Another thing I'd look at is how many times you let the dog go without the stick vs with the stick. For example, I run the pile for several days with no pressure at all. When momentum is good, I add the stick, but maybe only 3-4 times or less even in a session. Likely making contact only a couple times. Once the dog is scooting to avoid the stick, I move on. Usually just do one session, then will do one time when I intro collar. You mentioned the dog flared and went to the discard pile. Not all bad IMO. Creating compulsion to get a bumper, just need to get dog to understand which bumper.

What do you do in response to the refusal? Ear pinch to pile?

What if you sit the dog 15 feet from the pile and 15-20 feet from you (beyond stick reach)?

What does he do when you send from your side?
All cast and side sends go good without refusals. Without stick pressure.
Refusals with stick pressure get a no sit whistle. Or a sit nick sit. Depending on his attitude. I have not earbpinched to the pile but I have coller forced to the pile and he gets the idea from that kind of pressure.
If I remote sit him he cast's good without refusal.
Click to expand...
 
#17 ·
Jruss said:
captainjack said:
If it was poor timing, you have to undo the damage (for lack of a better term I would say your dog is damaged), before progressing. Whatever is the cause, the dog now has an expectation that must be addressed. Simplifying, more freebies, etc. and restoring the correct timing. This is true of any trainer induced hiccup that you encounter.

Another thing I'd look at is how many times you let the dog go without the stick vs with the stick. For example, I run the pile for several days with no pressure at all. When momentum is good, I add the stick, but maybe only 3-4 times or less even in a session. Likely making contact only a couple times. Once the dog is scooting to avoid the stick, I move on. Usually just do one session, then will do one time when I intro collar. You mentioned the dog flared and went to the discard pile. Not all bad IMO. Creating compulsion to get a bumper, just need to get dog to understand which bumper.

What do you do in response to the refusal? Ear pinch to pile?

What if you sit the dog 15 feet from the pile and 15-20 feet from you (beyond stick reach)?

What does he do when you send from your side?
All cast and side sends go good without refusals. Without stick pressure.
Refusals with stick pressure get a no sit whistle. Or a sit nick sit. Depending on his attitude. I have not earbpinched to the pile but I have coller forced to the pile and he gets the idea from that kind of pressure.
If I remote sit him he cast's good without refusal.
Click to expand...
I use stick to pile as a step to collar force to pile. If the dog already understands the collar force, maybe you are beyond needing stick to pile?

One thing to consider is when giving force to go, it's not a good idea to the enforce sit with a whistle or sit nick. I deal with all refusals with the ear pinch. Whatever you use, get the dog to go not sit.
Click to expand...
 
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Discussion starter · #18 ·
Got it cap.jack that makes perfect since on correction. so just to be clear if he is stick fetch with good results and coller fetch with good results go ahead and go to coller fetch fetch to the pile?
 
#20 ·
Jruss said:
Got it cap.jack that makes perfect since on correction. so just to be clear if he is stick fetch with good results and coller fetch with good results go ahead and go to coller fetch fetch to the pile?
Click to expand...
No, those criteria are what I want before stick to pile. I may have misunderstood what you meant, but I thought you were giving back-nick-back (collar fetch to pile) with good results after you had a refusal. If you haven't, I'd work through this with the stick. As I mentioned, if you decide to continue with the stick to pile, you'll have to simplify and give plenty of freebies before trying the stick again, then be ready for the refusal if it comes, and it most likely will.

It's difficult to write about, but I see... Back - stick as dog turns+back and be ready to reach for ear immediately (be reaching in case you get refusal, don't wait and react to the refusal). The ear pinch being the foundation to the force program should elicit good response from dog (just reaching for it) if you had good response in earlier work.

I'm obviously making assumptions that you ear pinch, walking fetch, stick fetch, and collar fetch prior to stick to pile...

What we read and what you have may be different things. Only you are in a position to see what you have. So think through all the advice you read here, see if it fits with what you are experiencing with your dog.

Think also about the purpose of this step and what you hope to get out of it. Recognize whether you have already achieved it. You can always back up if you move too fast, but not without some negative affect from the confusion that moving too fast has created. So move on if appropriate, but think it through first.

Good luck.
 
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captainjack
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