Walk-up... beyond the barrel of the gun.

1tulip · Jul 14, 2016

I didn't want to hijack the other walk-up thread because this involves Master (and beyond) tests. I overheard some long-time dog people talking about a walk-up and how folks were DQ'd if the dog was in front of the gun barrel... no matter how steady. Apparently it didn't even have to be the whole dog though I don't know what % of the dog's body/head/front feet or whatever constituted a failure.

If the judges tell you that you can't sit your dog until the bird reaches a certain point (the zenith of the arc, usually) and if the dog sits promptly, then (it seems to me) we're talking about how nimble the handler is in shuffling forward between the time the bird hits the peak and when it hits the ground.

In any event, I'm wondering if this gun barrel criteria is common. (Yes, I understand the rationale. Dog in harm's way and all that.)

BJGatley · Jul 14, 2016

1tulip said:
I didn't want to hijack the other walk-up thread because this involves Master (and beyond) tests. I overheard some long-time dog people talking about a walk-up and how folks were DQ'd if the dog was in front of the gun barrel... no matter how steady. Apparently it didn't even have to be the whole dog though I don't know what % of the dog's body/head/front feet or whatever constituted a failure.

If the judges tell you that you can't sit your dog until the bird reaches a certain point (the zenith of the arc, usually) and if the dog sits promptly, then (it seems to me) we're talking about how nimble the handler is in shuffling forward between the time the bird hits the peak and when it hits the ground.

In any event, I'm wondering if this gun barrel criteria is common. (Yes, I understand the rationale. Dog in harm's way and all that.)

It's sad to see this....the games seem to go south in what used to be....it comes with the time I guess.....
I remember baseball was a past time for those who enjoy the game....

22899 · Jul 14, 2016

Is there a "Line" or better yet,,, a Creep line on a walk up?

This is all I could find in the HT rules that directly speak of the walk up..

Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting tests, a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness. The birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover when possible so that only the bird may be seen when launched. Birds shall be presented at a distance ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized.As the first bird is thrown in a walk up situation, the handler may give either a verbal or whistle command to steady the dog once the bird is in the air. Judges shall tell handlers in advance of the start of judging when it is appropriate to give the steadying commend or whistle.There shall be no walk up test situations in Junior level tests.

The only other statement that could apply is this one:

Section 13. Position. When ordered to retrieve, thehandler shall direct his dog from any position designated bythe Judges.

The other question I have is... If it is truely a "surprise situation" is the dog required to be in a very tractable "heel" position,, or is the dog mimicking just walking with you when hunting.....or is there even a difference between the two?

I have been involved in this discussion with others, and I have stated the rules state the dog must walk tractably in the heel position getting to the line... I also stated that if I Judged, and,, dog the was way out of position, or wasnt "heeling" when told to,, I would heavily downgrade the dogs work....... Boy,, let me tell you,, I got jumped on big time,, and was told this is why I would NEVER be asked to Judge,,nor should I ever be allowed to..

Where in the rules does it define, where the dog MUST be during the walk up?

Wayne Nutt · Jul 14, 2016

I have not heard or seen in practice the two comments/concerns you mentioned: can't sit dog until certain point and dq if in front of gun barrel.
My dog sits automatically not when reaches top of arc. In hrc when there is an actual shot of poppers. Judges tell you to shoot up in the air if dog gets in front of barrel. This was especially important prior to primers only poppers.

paul young · Jul 14, 2016

1tulip said:
I didn't want to hijack the other walk-up thread because this involves Master (and beyond) tests. I overheard some long-time dog people talking about a walk-up and how folks were DQ'd if the dog was in front of the gun barrel... no matter how steady. Apparently it didn't even have to be the whole dog though I don't know what % of the dog's body/head/front feet or whatever constituted a failure.

If the judges tell you that you can't sit your dog until the bird reaches a certain point (the zenith of the arc, usually) and if the dog sits promptly, then (it seems to me) we're talking about how nimble the handler is in shuffling forward between the time the bird hits the peak and when it hits the ground.

In any event, I'm wondering if this gun barrel criteria is common. (Yes, I understand the rationale. Dog in harm's way and all that.)

No, it is not a common criteria for failure, based on my experience.-Paul

Stan b · Jul 14, 2016

paul young said:
No, it is not a common criteria for failure, based on my experience.-Paul

Paul, do you have the handler reheel the dog?
Do you use discretion on when and where the dog sat?

Good Dogs · Jul 14, 2016

1tulip said:
I didn't want to hijack the other walk-up thread because this involves Master (and beyond) tests. I overheard some long-time dog people talking about a walk-up and how folks were DQ'd if the dog was in front of the gun barrel... no matter how steady. Apparently it didn't even have to be the whole dog though I don't know what % of the dog's body/head/front feet or whatever constituted a failure.

If the judges tell you that you can't sit your dog until the bird reaches a certain point (the zenith of the arc, usually) and if the dog sits promptly, then (it seems to me) we're talking about how nimble the handler is in shuffling forward between the time the bird hits the peak and when it hits the ground.

In any event, I'm wondering if this gun barrel criteria is common. (Yes, I understand the rationale. Dog in harm's way and all that.)

No, it's fortunately (IMO) not common. But it has happened.

dr_dog_guy · Jul 14, 2016

1tulip said:
(Yes, I understand the rationale. Dog in harm's way and all that.)

The rationale for that DQ has to be pure obedience. Anyone that hunts upland with flushing dogs has shot over the dogs and understands the required care necessary to do that. So I don't think dog safety is a reasonable element to a DQ in this circumstance (unless someone is pointing the gun at a dog).

Hunt'EmUp · Jul 14, 2016

Hmm The only Item I've seen for such a DQ has to do with gun-safety mostly in HRC, but I assume it would transfer to AKC, if you were concerned with gun and Dog Safety. In HRC example if the dogs is in front of the gun your expected as handler to shoot up or not shoot, with the dog in the blast cone of the gun, as shooting endangers the dog. You very well could be DQ, definitely a Gun warning, if you were to point "shoot" a gun with the dog directly in front of barrel-in the blast cone, such applies to all work whether walk-up or not. As for creep lines, judges determine that on their own, only reference in the rulebook I've seen is that judges should agree on it, and there's some ~15ft in there somewheres. If the dog goes over the creep line it's considered a break, dogs out in Masters. I'm sure there could be excessive creep on walk-ups enough to DQ a dog, seen a few creep all the way to the bird a few times

.

Thomas D · Jul 14, 2016

MooseGooser said:
Is there a "Line" or better yet,,, a Creep line on a walk up?

This is all I could find in the HT rules that directly speak of the walk up..

Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting tests, a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness. The birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover when possible so that only the bird may be seen when launched. Birds shall be presented at a distance ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized.As the first bird is thrown in a walk up situation, the handler may give either a verbal or whistle command to steady the dog once the bird is in the air. Judges shall tell handlers in advance of the start of judging when it is appropriate to give the steadying commend or whistle.There shall be no walk up test situations in Junior level tests.

The only other statement that could apply is this one:

Section 13. Position. When ordered to retrieve, thehandler shall direct his dog from any position designated bythe Judges.

The other question I have is... If it is truely a "surprise situation" is the dog required to be in a very tractable "heel" position,, or is the dog mimicking just walking with you when hunting.....or is there even a difference between the two?

I have been involved in this discussion with others, and I have stated the rules state the dog must walk tractably in the heel position getting to the line... I also stated that if I Judged, and,, dog the was way out of position, or wasnt "heeling" when told to,, I would heavily downgrade the dogs work....... Boy,, let me tell you,, I got jumped on big time,, and was told this is why I would NEVER be asked to Judge,,nor should I ever be allowed to..

Where in the rules does it define, where the dog MUST be during the walk up?

How could you "heavily downgrade the dogs work"?
If you mean ding the dog on trainability that's fine, but dogs "work" includes other things.

Tim Carrion · Jul 14, 2016

Not a common reason for DQ but maybe it should be in the name of safety.

Would you want your thrower to be 3-4 feet in front of the flyer guns? Granted in AKC there is no shot but it is suppose to simulate real hunting/shooting. When real handler shooting was allowed in AKC creeping was judged much more stringently. Coincidence??

Tim

paul young · Jul 14, 2016

road kill said:
Paul, do you have the handler reheel the dog?
Do you use discretion on when and where the dog sat?

Whether or not to re-heel the dog should be about movement by the dog after the handler sits(stops) the dog.

Setting up and judging walk-up tests requires some skills not required 'regular' tests. You need to set up the point of origin so that the dog is not at a significant disadvantage to mark the birds if it stops and is outside of the 'ideal' area. Further, the judges need to signal for each dog such that the bird appears when the dog enters that hypothetical 'ideal' area. That requires that the judge doing the signaling gauge the speed at which the dog and handler are approaching the line to make it all work. -Paul

22899 · Jul 14, 2016

Thomas D said:
How could you "heavily downgrade the dogs work"?
If you mean ding the dog on trainability that's fine, but dogs "work" includes other things.

Easy! I would apply my standards when I judge (Common practice)

,,, I mean,, we cant have a "Loose" dog on the walk up ,can we....

and I would enforce the rule, that the dog should walk tractably at heel going to and from the line..

But I dont think anyone answered if there IS a "Line" on a walk up....

as far as the dog and safety...you are already standing up, compared to HRC's rule transferring to AKC,,annnnd consider the gun used in AKC is plywood,and doesnt make a ear damaging sound, or doesnt have to ablity to be lethal to anyone.... Hrc's gun does... Also,, HRC's Walk up,,you are standing to shoot also...

ErinsEdge · Jul 14, 2016

Where is the rule... in HRC? Are we talking AKC or HRC?

1tulip · Jul 14, 2016

So, the deal is this: The incident I overheard complaints about took place at one of the final hoop-dee-doo-events that shall remain nameless where all the best dogs show up to run. I didn't get in on the whole conversation. Coulda been a few years ago, I don't know. It doesn't really matter. The gist of the story is that the expense of running one of these deals is so high, that it soured the fella on going back to run even though his dog would qualify this year.

We're making our way up the ladder, so to speak and it was a cautionary tale for me. Line manners are always going to be our bugaboo so, I'm not worried about it, cause I must train as if it were true. That and maybe carefully consider how much I want to run with the big(gest) dogs if that opportunity ever presents itself.

22899 · Jul 14, 2016

Hunt'EmUp said:
Hmm The only Item I've seen for such a DQ has to do with gun-safety mostly in HRC, but I assume it would transfer to AKC, if you were concerned with gun and Dog Safety. In HRC example if the dogs is in front of the gun your expected as handler to shoot up or not shoot, with the dog in the blast cone of the gun, as shooting endangers the dog. You very well could be DQ, definitely a Gun warning, if you were to point "shoot" a gun with the dog directly in front of barrel-in the blast cone, such applies to all work whether walk-up or not. As for creep lines, judges determine that on their own, only reference in the rulebook I've seen is that judges should agree on it, and there's some ~15ft in there somewheres. If the dog goes over the creep line it's considered a break, dogs out in Masters. I'm sure there could be excessive creep on walk-ups enough to DQ a dog, seen a few creep all the way to the bird a few times.

MY comment mentioning HRC was in response to this previous comment about HRC rule transferring to AKC...

I wished it to be noted that in BOTH venues you are standing to shoot the walk up. You are directed to shoot at the top of the ARC.. This is common practice when hunting,,and the dog isnt in the blast cone of the barrel.. Also... HRC,, you have agun that fires a popper load.. IT IS dangerous ,and must be treated respectfully.... AKC,, the gun is plywood.... Judges comment safety and good shouldering must be practiced,, but in my experience it isnt enforced.

If the dog is a "beyond" the gun barrel,, like when Upland hunting,,and a bird flushes,, its up to the shooter to decide safe or not... But in a "TYPICAL" HT walk up,,, either venue,, the handler is walking... The bird flushes,and the SHOT or mimicing POINT is at the top of the arc,,,ABOVE THE DOG,and in a direction away from him.. The dog isnt in danger,,, he is hunting....

If judges dropped a dog for being out in front of the gun,,, did they talk about their demands (not being in front of the gun) during the handlers meeting???? if they did,, fine with me,, I'll do as you ask..

But I still ask,, where in the rules does it state where the dog must be positioned during a walk up? Where is the line??

If we are talking Master,,,,, if when the bird is thrown,,and the command is given to "Sit" by mouth or whistle,,if the command is given twice,, or if the dog creeps excessively,with a display to go to retrieve that bird or others thrown consecutivly,,, (break) Isnt the dog dropped automatically anyway??
The handler gave the sit command twice.... The dog broke..

Thomas D · Jul 15, 2016

MooseGooser said:
Easy! I would apply my standards when I judge (Common practice) ,,, I mean,, we cant have a "Loose" dog on the walk up ,can we.... and I would enforce the rule, that the dog should walk tractably at heel going to and from the line..

But I dont think anyone answered if there IS a "Line" on a walk up....

as far as the dog and safety...you are already standing up, compared to HRC's rule transferring to AKC,,annnnd consider the gun used in AKC is plywood,and doesnt make a ear damaging sound, or doesnt have to ablity to be lethal to anyone.... Hrc's gun does... Also,, HRC's Walk up,,you are standing to shoot also...

You are so wrapped up in trying to find "rules" for everything, you didn't understand what I was trying to say.
Maybe your friends are correct.

22899 · Jul 15, 2016

Thomas D said:
You are so wrapped up in trying to find "rules" for everything, you didn't understand what I was trying to say.
Maybe your friends are correct.

They are!!

I agree with them...

I enjoy running tests, to my own standard for my dog.
I am always Humbled when Two "judges" award us with a pass.... most of the time ,,I dont feel we deserve it...

I have watched enough of these things to easily recognize Great dog work..

I will say though,, there have been tests we failed, that I was VERY proud of our work... There have been Passes,,,, Not so much..

I learned a LONG time ago.... Its None of your business what people think of you..

Its better to focus on how you feel about yourself... If i go to a test,,and I truly walk away after its over, and Honestly say we did our best,,,, What more can you want??? If someone compliments us with a ribbon,,thats great.

In my mind, these are Tests... I am only trying to meet a written standard.... I am not in competition with anyone, other than my worse critic.... Me..

22899 · Jul 15, 2016

But this thread isnt about me...

Its about Judges dropping dogs that were in front of the gun when running the walk up...

What criteria did they use to come to the decision to drop them??....A Rule,,or an Opinion??

1tulip · Jul 15, 2016

I assumed (with no basis for it) that the person who was DQ'd was not aware that this was going to be the criteria. However, when you see people honoring on lead... assuming you're watching the event unfold, it might occur to ask. I do not know if it was mentioned in the handler's meeting.

Since I'm a newby, and since I know it is impolitic to ask "where is the creep line" (duh!) how do you bring something up like this in the handler's meeting? Just flat out ask... "Is my dog DQ'd if any part of him/her is in front of the barrel of the gun?"

Walk-up... beyond the barrel of the gun.

1tulip

BJGatley

22899

Wayne Nutt

paul young

Stan b

Good Dogs

dr_dog_guy

Hunt'EmUp

Thomas D

Tim Carrion

paul young

22899

ErinsEdge

1tulip

22899

Thomas D

22899

22899

1tulip

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