Where are the new retriever enthusiasts?

Hunt'EmUp · Oct 17, 2016

What exactly is dieing out? I was at a HT this weekend seemed to be a bunch of trucks, and a mixing of age levels, including junior handlers running dogs. Met a bunch of new handlers, gunners, with first dog, first ribbons, first titles. This is with hunting season starting next weekend. Now the senior stake was a bit smaller but it was also a Specialty and there's a lot of different breeds in the area. Master test are still closing early (seeing more Amatuers handling their own dogs because of the National AM) and junior owner participation even with exorbitant prices for tests seem to be above average for the fall. Hunt test participation seems to be doing fine, if not growing.

Last test I judged in spring had 28-30 senior dogs, and 45-50 juniors; I have never seen one that big, makes a lower stake judge's head hurt, when they have to remember how to count that high

.

DarrinGreene · Oct 17, 2016

Out here where we have heavy population and a lot of competition for hunting grounds, other than kids coming up in hunting families, there's not much being done at all with hunting, so therefore same follows with retrievers. Meanwhile my guess is agility is up because it caters to cookie pushers. I don't know that for sure though.

hillsidegoldens · Oct 17, 2016

I have run my dogs for 2 different groups youth pheasant hunts. I have done and will be doing dog demonstrations. Working with Keystone Wild Outdoors tv show a s pro staff member my fosus is bird hunting and dog training.

DSemple · Oct 17, 2016

LTanner said:
And I am not trying to start controversy, but I wish trials used dummies instead of birds. It breaks my heart to watch all those live fliers shot. I know it's super exciting for the dogs and much more a simulation of a real hunt, but it rubs me the wrong way. I shoot animals to feed my family, not for the sake of shooting, and in order to get a title a lot of birds have to die. I think that pushes some people away from the sport too.
Just my 2 cents.

+1

but then we would just be proving who are the best dogs on dummies

Don

1tulip · Oct 17, 2016

Vis. killing the live fliers: They are not thrown in the trash after everyone goes home. They are put in freezers and are used for many, many, many months to train dogs. (I don't want to tell you how old some of our birds are!!!) AND (this is an important thing to remember if you have a difficult time with birds dying) these dogs go hunting with their owners and retrieve birds, some of them cripples who would otherwise limp off into the weeds and die slowly. The birds hunters shoot are eaten.

fishduck · Oct 18, 2016

The demo's, training days and tests all help bring new people into the sport. What keeps them playing is introduction and acceptance in a local training group. There are very few individuals that are able to learn these games by themselves. To advance a dog they will need help. So invite these guys to spend an afternoon training.

LTanner · Oct 18, 2016

1tulip said:
Vis. killing the live fliers: They are not thrown in the trash after everyone goes home. They are put in freezers and are used for many, many, many months to train dogs. (I don't want to tell you how old some of our birds are!!!) AND (this is an important thing to remember if you have a difficult time with birds dying) these dogs go hunting with their owners and retrieve birds, some of them cripples who would otherwise limp off into the weeds and die slowly. The birds hunters shoot are eaten.

I know they are used for training, and quite frankly when working trials I much preferred slinging the fresh shot fliers then the god-knows-how-long dead stinky defrosted ducks.

I just think maybe juniors and seniors could be run with dokkens/bumpers and maybe some kind of short "will they pick up and carry a bird" test rather then the live birds being shot. It would drop the cost of the lower stakes a bit too I would think. Going for a title isn't something that makes a dog a good hunting retriever...to me they are showing the trainability and desire of the dogs to work with a handler.

If we are looking for retriever enthusiasts, it's a change that may help make our sport more mainstream. True hunters can train with shot fliers and reuse ducks as much as they need to. (In fact I am looking for some ducks/shot fliers at the moment, as I want to get my dogs picking birds up. lol.) It's the shooting of hundreds of birds in two days for a contest, not training retrievers I see as not quite right.

Tobias · Oct 18, 2016

Lisa,
Use of fake ducks in trials/tests is a subject that has been brought back to life here (RTF) on many occasions.

I appreciate the fact that people understand, acknowledge, and respect that these animals die for 'our use' - Not unlike all the other billions of animals that die for the sake of human consumption (eating or otherwise). The chickens in a butcher facility surely do not 'feel' any better than a flyer duck does at a test?

NAHRA tried going the 'rubber duck' route many years ago. The organization nearly died as a result.

Live birds are essential in the testing and trialing of 'hunting' retrievers.

lorneparker1 · Oct 18, 2016

Tobias said:
Lisa,
Use of fake ducks in trials/tests is a subject that has been brought back to life here (RTF) on many occasions.

I appreciate the fact that people understand, acknowledge, and respect that these animals die for 'our use' - Not unlike all the other billions of animals that die for the sake of human consumption (eating or otherwise). The chickens in a butcher facility surely do not 'feel' any better than a flyer duck does at a test?

NAHRA tried going the 'rubber duck' route many years ago. The organization nearly died as a result.

Live birds are essential in the testing and trialing of 'hunting' retrievers.

Well I wouldn't say live birds are essential. You cant shoot live flyers at all in Canada for any level of tests. Wish we could though!

ErinsEdge · Oct 18, 2016

I just think maybe juniors and seniors could be run with dokkens/bumpers and maybe some kind of short "will they pick up and carry a bird" test rather then the live birds being shot. It would drop the cost of the lower stakes a bit too I would think. Going for a title isn't something that makes a dog a good hunting retriever...to me they are showing the trainability and desire of the dogs to work with a handler.

This would be so wrong. The young dogs should have them as well as the older dogs, even more so. Every non birdy Lab would be touted for their titles. I KNOW CANADA IS FORCED TO DO IT BUT AS LONG AS WE HAVE A CHOICE, we should use birds because that's what the Labs and other retrievers were bred to do is retrieve game. I know I would refuse to compete for dummies.

Hunt'EmUp · Oct 18, 2016

Another thing to mention the birds are hatched and grown for this purpose, they support an industry, people lifestyles etc. If they weren't shot at tests-trials they would never be born, never live at all. In addition Pen-raised birds would die if they were not cared for or ever released. If there was no industry, an individual trainer would be hard pressed to find birds to train hunting dogs with. It's the clubs-event that need enough birds, that make it worthwhile for people to raise them. Without the clubs there wouldn't be enough demand, to justify raising them.

Honestly the younger dogs are those that need the flyers, a big dogs already knows to pick a live bird up; a young dog doesn't, a older dog has already gone hunting a younger dogs is most likely first being tested in a controlled environment to ensure he's ready to go hunting and retrieve real game. These dogs are conservation tools, these tests are used to evaluate both individual dogs and hunting stock, so that wild birds are not lost. If the test and trial dogs, which are the majority of breeding stock that hunters will purchase and use; are not proven to be able to retrieve freshly shot game, it defeats the point. Every hunted bird is a live flyer after all. I'm glad we have these birds to test dogs, it would be more of a waste to have to save wild game birds for dog training when such birds should be eaten. Hunted game and wild birds, are harvested for food, that's why we have pen-raised ones that are brought up for the distinct purpose. Plastic is not feathers, dead birds are not the same as freshly shot ones.

Hunt test = testing hunting dogs; besides the live flyers are more of a draw than anything else, as a lot of people do not have the ability to shoot nor test their own dogs on very many flyers, before they take them out hunting. Providing flyers is a skill oriented task that is easier for an event or club to provide, as it usually requires 2-3 people (trained thrower and gunners) to setup, which is hard for an individual to do by themselves unless they are training with a group (that utilizes flyers) or a pro.

NCShooter · Oct 20, 2016

I would like to also show appreciation for the pros out there. I was introduced to the dog world while on a duck hunt in ND. My buddy had a nice senior level hunting fool of a dog.
He took me to visit his pro after that trip, I started visiting regularly and the rest as they say is history. All I wanted was a nice family dog and hoped that he would turn into a nice hunting dog that would handle. I never planned to play the game at all. What I got was a super family dog that just happens to be HRCH and MH, and a great hunting dog as well. With the encouragement and help of two pros that I consider great friends, it has been a great experience.
Just my experience,
NCShooter

67632 · Oct 21, 2016

I'm not sure it's really dying... In my area, JRs are usually at around 30, SRs about the same and MH more than double that amount. As far as other sports, I see the same people over and over and they just get more dogs! Obedience matches fill fast and some of our obedience trials fill before they are even advertised, it seems. Again, many of the same people. Same with classes and lessons with the most sought after trainers, they are full.

I see the more progressive trainers are bringing in a lot of younger people. I took an online field training foundations class to supplement what I was already doing and many of those people got their JHs this year, doing online only, and were brand new at field work and not hunters. Most were under 40.

1tulip · Oct 21, 2016

I never realized how much you can do while training alone. And there are so many resources you can find... (some are advertised on RTF). Seriously, it is amazing.

The one thing that's hard to do without a group is to have someone critique your handling behavior. (Even if you could get someone to video you, that would only tell part of the story. You are standing on the line and after you kick the dog off, the decisions you make in handling are very dynamic, difficult to video.)

It helps to be in a group, which, as pointed out earlier, can be tough for the newbie to find.

EdA · Oct 21, 2016

ErinsEdge said:
I would refuse to compete for dummies.

That would be the end of field trials as we know them, it will probably happen eventually but hopefully not in our lifetime.

67632 · Oct 21, 2016

1tulip said:
The one thing that's hard to do without a group is to have someone critique your handling behavior. (Even if you could get someone to video you, that would only tell part of the story. You are standing on the line and after you kick the dog off, the decisions you make in handling are very dynamic, difficult to video.)

There are people out there who are extremely adept at providing feedback via video and handlers who learn exclusively how to train their dogs via video (they read too, and have discussions, but the trainer only sees videos). There are people in other countries who have no access to trainers who are 100% via video and I know people personally who do all of their lessons via video with their favorite professionals and do very well. You live in Oregon but want to train with someone in Chicago? It is now totally doable. I don't think it is as common among field trainers, but getting feedback on handling is easy and they can rewind, dissect, compare, slow down, etc. video so they have the ability to be very precise in their feedback.

Migillicutty · Oct 21, 2016

Labradorks said:
There are people out there who are extremely adept at providing feedback via video and handlers who learn exclusively how to train their dogs via video (they read too, and have discussions, but the trainer only sees videos). There are people in other countries who have no access to trainers who are 100% via video and I know people personally who do all of their lessons via video with their favorite professionals and do very well. You live in Oregon but want to train with someone in Chicago? It is now totally doable. I don't think it is as common among field trainers, but getting feedback on handling is easy and they can rewind, dissect, compare, slow down, etc. video so they have the ability to be very precise in their feedback.

Define "very well".

67632 · Oct 22, 2016

Migillicutty said:
Define "very well".

I know people who are at the Utility level in obedience and working on their UDX and OTCH having been trained via video. Some are on their first Utility dog. At that level, they are not brand new to dog sports (typically) but new to the higher levels. You have to keep in mind that the trainers who train via video are very good and well-known otherwise they would not be able to market their services around the world. These trainers are typically seminar-level trainers and at this time, mostly progressive trainers though some traditional trainers are starting to train online as well.

As far as field work goes, I've only seen foundations work being taught online -- both beginner and intermediate. But, I will say that the help I received via video lessons cleaned up our performances because she was able to pick at my handling second by second. My in person trainer is great, but he is not quite as tuned into my handling and how it affects my dog, though he is better at helping me with technical marks and stuff like that (he also has live ducks and a gun as well as 20 acres, so there's that...). They literally take note of the video by time (i.e., "At :21 do you see how you are bending toward the dog to accept the bird and how at :23 the dog slows as you bend over him and create pressure and then at :24 ... etc."). I think it allows the handler to literally see exactly what they are doing. Sometimes someone tells you you are doing something and you have no clue so how will you change it?

1tulip · Oct 22, 2016

Doubtless... a video of me leaving the holding blind, sitting the dog down, watching the birds go down, (reheeling my dog...*ahem*), putting my hand down, or not, and kicking her off... someone could critique me a lot on body posture, timing and so forth. I probably make lots of spastic moves.

It's not as good as having a group. And it still requires that you have access to land and water. But it probably does overcome some of the limitations a newbie would encounter.

Rainmaker · Oct 22, 2016

Labradorks said:
I know people who are at the Utility level in obedience and working on their UDX and OTCH having been trained via video. Some are on their first Utility dog. At that level, they are not brand new to dog sports (typically) but new to the higher levels. You have to keep in mind that the trainers who train via video are very good and well-known otherwise they would not be able to market their services around the world. These trainers are typically seminar-level trainers and at this time, mostly progressive trainers though some traditional trainers are starting to train online as well.

As far as field work goes, I've only seen foundations work being taught online -- both beginner and intermediate. But, I will say that the help I received via video lessons cleaned up our performances because she was able to pick at my handling second by second. My in person trainer is great, but he is not quite as tuned into my handling and how it affects my dog, though he is better at helping me with technical marks and stuff like that (he also has live ducks and a gun as well as 20 acres, so there's that...). They literally take note of the video by time (i.e., "At :21 do you see how you are bending toward the dog to accept the bird and how at :23 the dog slows as you bend over him and create pressure and then at :24 ... etc."). I think it allows the handler to literally see exactly what they are doing. Sometimes someone tells you you are doing something and you have no clue so how will you change it?

What is a "progressive" vs a "traditional" trainer and what venue(s)?

Where are the new retriever enthusiasts?

Hunt'EmUp

DarrinGreene

hillsidegoldens

DSemple

1tulip

fishduck

LTanner

Tobias

lorneparker1

ErinsEdge

Hunt'EmUp

NCShooter

67632

1tulip

EdA

67632

Migillicutty

67632

1tulip

Rainmaker

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