RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

prong collar 6.5 monh old ylm

Jump to Latest
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
3

308ruger

· Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
Staring my pup in obedience trainiing and the trainer sold me a size small herm sprenger prong collar.

He seemed ok with it at first, but lately is crying at times with it and pulling away from me. I have been adding links as needed provided by the trainer.

Today during class he pretty much freaked out when i was trying to walk him, crying crazily, then laying down. Trainer says its "fear period" which i dont understand at all.

He's 60 lbs, does it being a size small have anything at all to do with his getting crazy on me?

I will say the onlything different in his routine has been i took him to mountains with me and had him running on check cord, didnt use the prong at all. May have thrown off his routine as 3 hours in car on way there and back...

Any thoughts would be appreciated as i was really happy walking him on it as he wasnt pulling my shoulder out of socket
 
#3 ·
Tobias may very well be correct. A bit odd he would totally shut down now. Is he shutting down everywhere?? Have you tried getting your treats out and walking him around and just give him a treat for positive behavior? Hold the treat in front of him. If so and a no-go you may want to try a regular choke for a bit with treat training. See if same response. I always go back to fail proof....Lure with treats, make a positive experience and hopefully he pulls through the tantrum...
 
#4 · (Edited)
You botched the introduction - which is your trainer's fault.

First - take the links out that you added - as many as you have to so the collar rides high on the neck, under the ears and is snug enough to stay there. The biggest problem I see, with virtually everyone is that their prong is on too loose.

Second - put the collar on the dog and do some treat/retrieve/play work for a few minutes before using it.

Third - reintroduce the collar. Use gentle straight line leash pressure LATERALLY to teach him to follow you and turn the collar pressure off. That means, if you're at the center of the clock with the dog headed to 12 o'clock - you move to 3 or 9 - holding the leash down so that it is level with is neck. Move gently and DO NOT LET UP if he decides to battle you.

Fourth - let the dog wear the collar for a couple of hours after the session is over. He needs to know that just because the collar is on - it doesn't mean he's going to get pressure applied.

He's freaking out because he doesn't understand how to turn the pressure off. You have to show him by manipulating the leash and your body position to allow him to do that. He has probably learned that if whines, cries or throws a hissy fit you'll stop to re-group and that turns the pressure off. You can not allow him to talk you out of what you're doing.

Start from the beginning and get yourself a new trainer ASAP.

You're in for 10 minutes of ugly here - now that you are where you are. Just get through it and in 99% of cases the dog will be fine.

Please note - this advice is from having introduced a prong to something around 500 dogs. I have seen maybe 1 or 2 in that number that did not understand one or stressed so badly it couldn't be used. The likelihood that you have one of those is VERY small. Stay the course, re-introduce the collar properly and the dog will figure it out fine.

Here's some information on fear periods - but don't go too crazy and say "he's scared I need to let up" - the dog just needs clear communication from you using the tools.

http://ice.ucdavis.edu/~robyn/Korina/BCIdeas/Criticalperiodsinpuppydevelopment.html

Don't complicate this - it's simple - if the dog wants to fight the pressure stays on until he stops and follows you. He'll be a whole different dog all the way around once he figures it out.
 
#5 ·
Size small? I'd say a 60 pound dog would pull too hard for the small diameter prongs. Also fit is very important.

I've used prong collars before, but am not really a fan. Prefer just to train the dog to walk at heel using Hillmann's approach. Of course it's much easier to do before they get that big and the habit of pulling is ingrained.

Also, I don't walk my dogs as that is primarily how they get the habit of not walking at heel. Typically the walker (you) has a destination in mind. Also want to allow the dog out in front or elsewhere not at heel to relieve himself, sniff stuff, etc. I recommend that you finish your obedience training and have the dog walking at heel by habit before you resume your walks.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#6 ·
captainjack said:
Size small? I'd say a 60 pound dog would pull too hard for the small diameter prongs. Also fit is very important.

I've used prong collars before, but am not really a fan. Prefer just to train the dog to walk at heel using Hillmann's approach. Of course it's much easier to do before they get that big and the habit of pulling is ingrained.

Also, I don't walk my dogs as that is primarily how they get the habit of not walking at heel. Typically the walker (you) has a destination in mind. Also want to allow the dog out in front or elsewhere not at heel to relieve himself, sniff stuff, etc. I recommend that you finish your obedience training and have the dog walking at heel by habit before you resume your walks.
Click to expand...
Size small for everything up to 100 lb as long as they aren't long haired Glen. Works much better. Usually eliminates any freak out (obviously not in this case). You add links to appropriately fit the dog (a small is only 12").

I use them every day - very easy for most users once they accept the concept.
 
#7 ·
Darrin is "right on" and his numbered approach above is excellent. One more tip, though.

I use both a regular (small link) choke collar and, at other times, a prong collar.

I was taught and still use them differently. With a choke collar, I am in control and can 'zip and release' to get my dog's attention. With a prong collar, the dog is the one that closes up or tightens the collar and applies their own pressure -- when I say "Heel" she learns that she is the one that can relieve the pressure by not pulling or by moving back into the correct position. (It takes discipline to not jerk it but it works.)

Just my experience...
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Thank you everyone for your advice!

I didnt get the whole fear period thing around what she was saying, that didnt sound like what i was experiencing. I'll step back as indicated and start from scratch in about a week. Til then I'll go treat/loose leash.
 
#9 ·
DarrinGreene said:
Size small for everything up to 100 lb as long as they aren't long haired Glen. Works much better. Usually eliminates any freak out (obviously not in this case). You add links to appropriately fit the dog (a small is only 12").

I use them every day - very easy for most users once they accept the concept.
Click to expand...
Yes on the size.. The bigger the link the less effective the collar is.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #10 ·
DarrinGreene said:
Size small for everything up to 100 lb as long as they aren't long haired Glen. Works much better. Usually eliminates any freak out (obviously not in this case). You add links to appropriately fit the dog (a small is only 12").

I use them every day - very easy for most users once they accept the concept.
Click to expand...
One question, do you think he'd freak out less with a mediug?
 
#11 ·
Does he hit the end of the lead hard and then freak out or pull into for a few seconds before freaking out? Does he cry only when he hits the end, or the whole time, or only when on the floor? When on the floor does he try to roll, lay down near you, or keep pulling forward but on the floor? I would look at all this to try to figure out if he is being dramatic or truly having a problem.
A correctly used pinch collar should be uncomfortable but not super painful. The screaming tells me 1) he truly hurts for some reason, or 2) is flipping out mentally because he does not know how to fix things, or 3) he does not WANT to fix things and is being dramatic. I would always approach these type issues giving the dog the benefit of the doubt and address 1 -3 in order to be sure. 1) check that the collar fits correctly, tightens and loosens correctly without catching the fur of hitting some sore spot on the neck. 2) go back and retrain the concept of the pinch collar and the task correctly with praise/reward for correct behavior, collar correction for pulling. You may be doing too much at once. Maybe only one step and stop for a while. Remind him with verbal cues as he learns. Stay small until he understands. 3) If he still pitches a fit after seriously and carefully doing 1 and 2 and you are quite sure he is not in pain and not confused, then treat it as a tantrum and ask for simple tasks but expect him to pull out of his tantrum to fix himself to make the correction stop.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#13 ·
mountaindogs said:
Does he hit the end of the lead hard and then freak out or pull into for a few seconds before freaking out? Does he cry only when he hits the end, or the whole time, or only when on the floor? When on the floor does he try to roll, lay down near you, or keep pulling forward but on the floor? I would look at all this to try to figure out if he is being dramatic or truly having a problem.
A correctly used pinch collar should be uncomfortable but not super painful. The screaming tells me 1) he truly hurts for some reason, or 2) is flipping out mentally because he does not know how to fix things, or 3) he does not WANT to fix things and is being dramatic. I would always approach these type issues giving the dog the benefit of the doubt and address 1 -3 in order to be sure. 1) check that the collar fits correctly, tightens and loosens correctly without catching the fur of hitting some sore spot on the neck. 2) go back and retrain the concept of the pinch collar and the task correctly with praise/reward for correct behavior, collar correction for pulling. You may be doing too much at once. Maybe only one step and stop for a while. Remind him with verbal cues as he learns. Stay small until he understands. 3) If he still pitches a fit after seriously and carefully doing 1 and 2 and you are quite sure he is not in pain and not confused, then treat it as a tantrum and ask for simple tasks but expect him to pull out of his tantrum to fix himself to make the correction stop.
Click to expand...
Really good advice above...

BJ
 
#14 ·
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#15 ·
captainjack said:
Why is that?
Click to expand...
That isn't always 100% true but a lot of times you only have 4-5 links in the collar vs. 10-11 with a small.

It seems that many dogs over react to the medium/large but not so much with the more evenly distributed sensation from a small.

As with most things - I don't know because I can't speak to the dog but this is my observation over a large number of introductions.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
mountaindogs said:
Does he hit the end of the lead hard and then freak out or pull into for a few seconds before freaking out? Does he cry only when he hits the end, or the whole time, or only when on the floor? When on the floor does he try to roll, lay down near you, or keep pulling forward but on the floor? I would look at all this to try to figure out if he is being dramatic or truly having a problem.
A correctly used pinch collar should be uncomfortable but not super painful. The screaming tells me 1) he truly hurts for some reason, or 2) is flipping out mentally because he does not know how to fix things, or 3) he does not WANT to fix things and is being dramatic. I would always approach these type issues giving the dog the benefit of the doubt and address 1 -3 in order to be sure. 1) check that the collar fits correctly, tightens and loosens correctly without catching the fur of hitting some sore spot on the neck. 2) go back and retrain the concept of the pinch collar and the task correctly with praise/reward for correct behavior, collar correction for pulling. You may be doing too much at once. Maybe only one step and stop for a while. Remind him with verbal cues as he learns. Stay small until he understands. 3) If he still pitches a fit after seriously and carefully doing 1 and 2 and you are quite sure he is not in pain and not confused, then treat it as a tantrum and ask for simple tasks but expect him to pull out of his tantrum to fix himself to make the correction stop.
Click to expand...
Sorry for delay, here are a couple answers to your questions above.
pulls into for a few seconds then freaks out? Cries when he hits the end and when on the floor? When on the floor he lays.


At this time, I'm not using the prong at all and working on trying to get him to work on loose leash, but i feel i will have to have prong back at some point. especially around people when he starts pulling.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
DarrinGreene said:
yes enough extra links to have a nice snug fit high on the neck behind the dog's ears. Is the plates touch under tension then take a link or two out.
Click to expand...
thanks.

When im walking him with prong and person wants to pet, should i just say no til he gets settled again? he gets real haap around people and will pull towards them
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
About this Discussion
35 Replies
11 Participants
Last post:
DarrinGreene
RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF
posts
1.5M
members
36K
Since
2003
A forum community dedicated to retriever owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, training, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
General Retriever Training Forum Event Information AKC Field Trials Equipment, Gear & Miscellaneous Classifieds Training