I haven't started CCing my dog yet but I have a question. Do you use momentary or a continuous nick to get a quick, snappy sit?
Speeding Up The "SIT" response
Stephen Whitley
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I haven't started CCing my dog yet but I have a question. Do you use momentary or a continuous nick to get a quick, snappy sit?
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I would say nick to see what his reaction is and how he does with it.I havent ever used continous on teaching sit.
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Sit-nick, if that doesn't speed it up i use sit-continuous "low level". Last resort is a crop or heeling stick, but be careful of the spine on the taps.
Good luck
Brad
Good luck
Brad
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What about when you are working on blinds and you are getting a slow sit in response to the whistle? Do you ever correct that with a continuous stimulation?
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this is a question...if you r dog is out in the field and you blow a whistle and they dont sit very good or fast and you use continous would you not make that area HOT and they wont want to sit in that spot?
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Prior to collar conditioning, I would proceed the electronic nick with a quick "nick" from the heeling stick. Stick pressure works really well with sit. Once dogs understand, it usually results in "quick sits" to avoid the pressure all together. When you begin seeing this, you're ready to introduce collar pressure with "sit" to reinforce what the dog already knows. This is how I usually progress from stick pressure to collar pressure with "sit".
Good luck.
Good luck.
G
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·This is the "current" method. Except replace "proceed" with "precede"Okieh2odog said:
Get a snappy sit with the stick first and then you have it "ready" for collar conditioning. Stick is one of the initial introductions to pressure, where dog learns that snappy response is best. So dog should already UNDERSTAND that snappy response is the best reponse to pressure. THEN when you do CC, it's really quite smooth.
I think the original poster may be confused about terminology though as far as nick versus continuous.
We normally still only "nick" even when using the "continuous" options on our collar. The other option besides a nick is a "burn" which is where the collar is held down longer than a nick, but usually still not very long. Maybe just more than 1-mississippi on average.
DownEast, I just want to make sure you're not talking about the "continuous" type stimulation with older collar programs where you hold the button down until you have compliance. That tends to create more nagging than anything... The newer methods using nicks (and burns only when necessary) make a snappier dog.
-K
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My bad Kristie. I've got pretty fat fingers when it comes to typing.Kristie Wilder said:This is the "current" method. Except replace "proceed" with "precede"Okieh2odog said:
Glad we can agree that DownEast should PRECEDE the collar pressure with the stick in this case.
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When I was using the word "nick" I was referring to momentary stimulation. When I said continuaous I meant holding the red button down. I am glad I never had the nerve to try and quicken a "sit" with my older dog using a continuous burn. Now I know! That's why I asked. Thanks!
Right now I am abut a week away from CC. This puppy is 6 months old and knows what he should know obedience wise. I assume I should start using the stick to speed his response up at this time. Should I use the stick in a way to really get the point across? Or, would the fairly light tapping I am using now be enough to speed him up? I realize that there is a difference dog to dog. I am thinking from what some of you are saying that this is somewhat similar to FF in that there is a certain amount of pressure that he is just going to have to go through.
Right now I am abut a week away from CC. This puppy is 6 months old and knows what he should know obedience wise. I assume I should start using the stick to speed his response up at this time. Should I use the stick in a way to really get the point across? Or, would the fairly light tapping I am using now be enough to speed him up? I realize that there is a difference dog to dog. I am thinking from what some of you are saying that this is somewhat similar to FF in that there is a certain amount of pressure that he is just going to have to go through.
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The stick is an excellent tool for a speedy sit. I completely agree with Kristie. Especially given pup's age. TEACH, THEN use the collar as a reinforcer.
Not sure what you mean by a light tap, but the fleshy part of the dog's hind end can handle a swift pop from the stick. (Don't beat him with it!) It is more of an attention getter than anything. Makes the pup realize that when you say sit, you mean it.
Not sure what you mean by a light tap, but the fleshy part of the dog's hind end can handle a swift pop from the stick. (Don't beat him with it!) It is more of an attention getter than anything. Makes the pup realize that when you say sit, you mean it.
G
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·also, make sure you have the right type of stick...Southern Rebel said:
Good sticks are half way between a wet noodle and a dowel.
Should be flexible, but able to give a nice quick flick.
-K
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http://www.dogsafield.com/prodinfo.asp?number=R023-001
This is what I like to use... the leather makes a nice pop which aids in getting the dog's attention.
I also throw mine for the dog to retrieve a few times to avoid any fear of the stick.
This is what I like to use... the leather makes a nice pop which aids in getting the dog's attention.
I also throw mine for the dog to retrieve a few times to avoid any fear of the stick.
I know you all already know this but I didn't notice it mentioned, there is another method of force on the sit command: Lease corrections. On my pup, I tied the 'nick' of the e-collar in with the leash correction and boy did that work better than using the stick for me. I really can't imagine even trying to do it without the jerk of the lead. Maybe you all didn't mention it because it is a given.
G
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·i didn't mention it because I pretty much only use it as a early puppy correction. Part of the reason NOT to use the lead is that, in the end, we want our dogs working OFF the lead.DL said:
Visualize this: If you think about the sequence of the types of pressure we use...
We are moving from very manual, right-there-with-the-dog pressure (a little pop to the butt or pressure with our hand for sit when they're little, a cuff under the chin for quiet or mouthing, etc.) to total off-leash control which returns US as HANDLERS to an UPRIGHT HANDS-OFF POSTURE.
When I'm doing a stick lesson or CC, the leash will be used ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. Because I want the dog on a LOOSE LEASH, because eventually the leash won't be there. That's part of why we train with slip leads or choke chains, because when the dog is in the right place, they're "naked" so to speak because the collar is hanging loosely. So the learn that they don't need to feel leash pressure to be under control.
Each sequential correction type, throughout the dog's early training, is less and less hands-on and "physical" and, again, takes us from having to bend down and move around to apply it to a position where we're standing in normal posture and able to reinforce our training.
-K
Thanks for the explanation Kristie,
I've got just one point where I'm not totally convinced, if using the lead helps to introduce e-collar corrections, and someone was concerned about doing it right, and not messing things up, using a lead to introduce the e-collar correction still sounds like a good idea to me. :?: It is just a session or two.
I've got just one point where I'm not totally convinced, if using the lead helps to introduce e-collar corrections, and someone was concerned about doing it right, and not messing things up, using a lead to introduce the e-collar correction still sounds like a good idea to me. :?: It is just a session or two.
G
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·It's fine, it's just not ideal at that point in training. coming in on a remote sit is really the only place I'll use the collar because it's not a good idea to come over the top of a dog's head with a stick.DL said:
I'm not saying I absolutely wouldn't use the collar, because there are times I do during CC. But I'm going to TRY not to because I'm working toward a dog that responds without it.
It's NOT an awful idea, but you had said in your post that nobody had mentioned it and I was just why I hadn't. Not sure about others.
-K
Kristie,
I'm sure your right. It is probally why my dog was just giving my most horribly slow sits on sitting to a pile a few minutes ago.
I'm working on the come in cast on sit to pile, but I sugar coated it by letting the dog watch me toss the bumper after she sat, then throwing a fun bumper after the delivery to a front finish.
Now unfortunately she turns around and is wild eyed, and not thinking about sitting. I'm trying to decide if I need to blow a second sit whistle and nick, instead of a burn after the first.
It sounds awful, but to a degree I'm glad to see her responding at all off lead to the whistle. I had a really hard time getting her to stop to the pile. The come in from the pile seems like a good opportunity to give her a reason to stop. I totally overlooked that step with my last dog because he stopped without a problem and would basically come in to pick up a bumper without a problem, but it is somewhat of a problem in the field with a bird involved now.
I've spent about three sessions on the come in from the pile so far. I haven't really done much whistle work at all with my new dog. The come in whistle was limited to coming in for a treat as a little puppy, and maybe a day or two on obedience and collar conditioning a year ago. So, to a degree I'm glad to see her just obeying the whistle with some enthusiasm, but I realize I've got to do something about the slow flaring sit.
Thanks again.
I'm sure your right. It is probally why my dog was just giving my most horribly slow sits on sitting to a pile a few minutes ago.
I'm working on the come in cast on sit to pile, but I sugar coated it by letting the dog watch me toss the bumper after she sat, then throwing a fun bumper after the delivery to a front finish.
Now unfortunately she turns around and is wild eyed, and not thinking about sitting. I'm trying to decide if I need to blow a second sit whistle and nick, instead of a burn after the first.
It sounds awful, but to a degree I'm glad to see her responding at all off lead to the whistle. I had a really hard time getting her to stop to the pile. The come in from the pile seems like a good opportunity to give her a reason to stop. I totally overlooked that step with my last dog because he stopped without a problem and would basically come in to pick up a bumper without a problem, but it is somewhat of a problem in the field with a bird involved now.
I've spent about three sessions on the come in from the pile so far. I haven't really done much whistle work at all with my new dog. The come in whistle was limited to coming in for a treat as a little puppy, and maybe a day or two on obedience and collar conditioning a year ago. So, to a degree I'm glad to see her just obeying the whistle with some enthusiasm, but I realize I've got to do something about the slow flaring sit.
Thanks again.
G
Guest
·go back to basic OB and do some sits at heel, recalls with sits, etc. etc. using the whistle instead of your voice. Use the stick (preferably not collar for THIS particular thing you're experiencing) for sits by your side. You can use a nick if you must for sitting on recall. Once they're snappy like that, go back to your pile work...DL said:
Do coming in first, move towards her as you give a sharp whistle or sharp verbal sit to make it easier and quicker...
Then try the en route sit whistle again once you have all the rest snappy.
I don't think THIS (above) is why it's not snappy because you CAN get a snappy sit using the collar. It's just not the "sequence" to "offleash" that will help her get it better faster...
-K
I read your post, and gave some thought to doing some more obedience, especially sits on a recall. I may still do some of that.
I thought about what my dog is doing also, and knowing her I decided I could correct on the sit to pile with her. She is two years old and I overexagerated her lack of training.
Here is the suprising thing. I went back to sitting to a pile with her today, but this time I took the transmitter out of my back pocket and had it in my hand on the sends. I didn't get a single slow sit. :shock:
Now I am going to try intersperse casting her back after the sits, but I have to decide if I need to unwind the sits, or go up to her and hold the rope to make sure I get the correct spin.
Thanks again.
I thought about what my dog is doing also, and knowing her I decided I could correct on the sit to pile with her. She is two years old and I overexagerated her lack of training.
Here is the suprising thing. I went back to sitting to a pile with her today, but this time I took the transmitter out of my back pocket and had it in my hand on the sends. I didn't get a single slow sit. :shock:
Now I am going to try intersperse casting her back after the sits, but I have to decide if I need to unwind the sits, or go up to her and hold the rope to make sure I get the correct spin.
Thanks again.
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You're second paragraph brings up something I have been thinking about doing. Is it enough to just allow a dog to wear an inactive collar for the weeks leading up to collar conditioning? I have thought about having the transmitter in my hand when I am training just so my dog is use to seeing it before the collar corrections begin. I wouldn't think it is a bad idea, but is it necassary?DL said:
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