Ideas needed on how to make the Master test entry system fairer

Hunt'EmUp · Mar 8, 2017

I would like to see hunt test Pros organize something akin to the FT- PRTA (professional retriever training Assocation) and put forth some work to put on a few tests, rather than always relying on an amateur ran club to put them on. FT the PTRA does host their own trials. It would provide another test or two and It would go a long way, to helping with some of the animosity btw Pros-Am. We can say all we want about Clubs needing to put on more tests, but they are pretty much taxed to their limit putting on the test that they already do; it's not easy, it's not fun to host these events; it's hard work, planning for mulitple months, and dealing with all the issues that come up. The long and short of it is Pros make a lot of their living running these tests, and it is mostly off volunteer work of others. Not saying pros do not give back some do; and when your running many dogs, you might not have the time to help as you would like; but they are utilizing most of the resources, and providing minimal returns (yes they pay entry fees, but so do those who are working the test and clubs are non-profit organizations-where as Pro trainers are not). Nothing is stopping a pro or a group of them from putting on a test, taking on the responsibility of organizing and running it. I would definitely run it and most likely feel a bit better about having to throw birds for an endless line of 10-20 pro dogs, when that pro has provided a testing opportunity and thrown birds for me-others. It's pretty much feeling akin to slave labor to work these tests these days; as a club representative it doesn't make me want to put forth any effort to run more stakes with more dogs, or more tests than we already do. Heck historically cutting back and putting in stricter # stakes-limits, makes life easier, and keeps workers- club members happier.

mjh345 · Mar 8, 2017

Bubba said:
Institute a simple lottery.
It has been suggested many times but one more time won't hurt. Handlers with more than one dog assign a priority to their entries (1-n). At the closing all the #1 dogs are automatically entered (with that handler ONLY). Then if there is additional room ALL the #2 dogs are entered (again with that handler ONLY). Continue until the limit is met. Completely fair, everyone is guaranteed at least one entry and most importantly, the folk's that are contributing to the effort are not excluded. The pros simply auction off the premier holes and their income remains the same. Could possibly even lead to the owners actually learning to run their own dog?

Fair and balanced regards

Bubba

Good suggestion that would be fair and address the issue. It should be very workable as EE already has a feature to prioritize your dogs

fishduck · Mar 8, 2017

Hunt'EmUp said:
I would like to see hunt test Pros organize something akin the the FT- PRTA (professional retriever training Assocation) and put forth some work to put on a few tests, rather than always relying on an amateur ran club to put them on. FT the PTRA does host their own trials. It would provide another test or two and It would go a long way, to helping with some of the animosity btw Pros-Am. We can say all we want about Clubs needing to put on more tests, but they are pretty much taxed to their limit putting on the test that they already do; it's not easy, it's not fun to host these events; it's hard work, planning for mulitple months, and dealing with all the issues that come up for a club to put them on. The long and short of it is Pros make a lot of their living running these tests, and it is mostly off volunteer work of others. Not saying pros do not give back some do; and when your running many dogs, you might not have the time to help as you would like; but they are utilizing most of the resources, and providing minimal returns (yes they pay entry fees, but so do those who are working the test and clubs are non-profit organizations). Nothing is stopping a pro or a group of them from putting on a test, taking on the responsibility of organizing and running it. I would definitely run it and most likely feel a bit better about having to throw birds for an endless line of 10-20 pro dogs, when that pro has thrown birds for me and others. It's pretty much feeling akin to slave labor to work these tests these days; and a a club representative it doesn't make me want to put forth any effort to run stakes with more dogs, or more test than we already do. Heck historically cutting back and putting in stricter # stakes-limits, makes life easier.

The pros in my area are putting on tests. It is IMHO very good PR. This past fall I ran an O/H Qualifier and pros volunteered to throw birds all day.

T. Mac · Mar 8, 2017

Tobias said:
..... Only 14 of the 60 were already titled (MH)......

Our last test had 62 out of an entry of 113 that where MH titled (or better) per ee's data. Next test it is 39 out of 60.

HoHum's Retrievers · Mar 8, 2017

Hunt'EmUp said:
I would like to see hunt test Pros organize something akin to the FT- PRTA (professional retriever training Assocation) and put forth some work to put on a few tests, rather than always relying on an amateur ran club to put them on. FT the PTRA does host their own trials. It would provide another test or two and It would go a long way, to helping with some of the animosity btw Pros-Am. We can say all we want about Clubs needing to put on more tests, but they are pretty much taxed to their limit putting on the test that they already do; it's not easy, it's not fun to host these events; it's hard work, planning for mulitple months, and dealing with all the issues that come up. The long and short of it is Pros make a lot of their living running these tests, and it is mostly off volunteer work of others. Not saying pros do not give back some do; and when your running many dogs, you might not have the time to help as you would like; but they are utilizing most of the resources, and providing minimal returns (yes they pay entry fees, but so do those who are working the test and clubs are non-profit organizations-where as Pro trainers are not). Nothing is stopping a pro or a group of them from putting on a test, taking on the responsibility of organizing and running it. I would definitely run it and most likely feel a bit better about having to throw birds for an endless line of 10-20 pro dogs, when that pro has provided a testing opportunity and thrown birds for me-others. It's pretty much feeling akin to slave labor to work these tests these days; as a club representative it doesn't make me want to put forth any effort to run more stakes with more dogs, or more tests than we already do. Heck historically cutting back and putting in stricter # stakes-limits, makes life easier, and keeps workers- club members happier.

First, several of the hunt test pros do belong to the PRTA. PRTA is not just for FT pros.

Second, some of the PRTA HT pros DID put on a hunt test in Texas last year. I think it was near Giddings. I know one of training partners who winters in Georgia judged the event and a friend who is a pro down there that summers up North here and runs the hunt test I chair was pretty involved in the event.

Hunt'EmUp · Mar 8, 2017

HoHum's Retrievers said:
First, several of the hunt test pros do belong to the PRTA. PRTA is not just for FT pros.

Second, some of the PRTA HT pros DID put on a hunt test in Texas last year. I think it was near Giddings. I know one of training partners who winters in Georgia judged the event and a friend who is a pro down there that summers up North here and runs the hunt test I chair was pretty involved in the event.

Good for them, in my area I've only seen them host FT's, and looking on their list not; one of the pros that I see at every event with a string of dogs that I've been throwing birds for; at hunt tests in the last multiple years, are members of PRTA. Where-as all the FT pros, I'm familiar with in this area are; most likely why FT are more supported out here. PRTA is just an example of an organization that is comprised of pros that is providing resources. I believe the FT Pros at least from my observation in this area, have more of a handle on realizing the need to give back, to keep these events running. Not saying a pro needs to be members of PRTA, we have 2 pros out here who created clubs and hosted events this year (FT & HRC, but that doesn't provide more AKC hunt tests). Which is what is needed, and while I do see participation from a few individual pros across venues, I don't see this same participation with many of the AKC hunt test pros, who are taking up the majority of the spots in the hunt test events, these events are their livelihood, they need to catch-up.

LGH · Mar 8, 2017

What about a 5 dog limit before having to re-enter? I just can't see it being profitable for a pro running any less than that when you factor in 2 nights in hotel fees, fuel and food. I train, and run my own dogs 95% of the time, but I shift work and some weekends it's not possible to get off. A friend of mine who"s a pro will run for me on those occasions. If I don't forget to enter exactly at 8 o'clock I normally get in. PS it's Wednesday night!

bruce · Mar 9, 2017

The real answer is to have the MNRC eliminate the requirement that a MN participant qualify each year and open the MN to all MH dogs. Ooops that would result in a massive MN event, that leads to the discussion of Regional Qualifiers etc. and the Merry Go Round spins again ...

LabskeBill · Mar 9, 2017

As David Kress stated earlier, all this debating will accomplish absolutely noting. RHTAC, AKC, and the MNRC are whats in charge. As I understand it, to change an AKC rule, clubs must submit the proposed change to the RHTAC. They will eval and either reject or modify, or approve and sent to AKC , where The AKC BOD has to approve. To change a MNRC rule, two clubs can submit a proposal. Will either be sent in snail mail or to the annual meeting at the MNRC depending upon the time of the year submission is made.. I think either 66% or 75% of the delegates must vote for the change. Many proposal have been submitted but few have been adopted.
my 2 cents worth
BillB

Rusty Champion · Mar 9, 2017

I’ve thought quite a while about this and I think we sometimes miss the root of the issue. Obviously there is more demand for some (or maybe most) master tests than can be accommodated in a 60/90 dog test. You definitely do not want to limit the demand for everyone, but rather I think the solution is to limit the number of dogs with X number of attempts. In August when the qualifying period starts, every dog should have a clean slate and entry to master tests will be first come first served. This is just how it is now and would certainly lend itself to the same issues we experience now with fast internet connections and those with multiple entries having a distinct advantage. However, if you put a counter in place that places a dog in an automatic waitlist for a 24hr period once they’ve ran in 8 or 10 master tests, then you begin to see these “career master” dogs who compete in numerous events in a year having to allow those who haven’t competed an opportunity to do so. I am a proponent of a 75% pass rate for master national qualification as opposed to just 6 for 8. A dog may fail 3 tests early in the year, but given enough tests they can achieve that pass rate needed to qualify for MN, but those dogs that can’t do it in 8 or 10 tests are then put in jeopardy since they’re waitlisted every test. I don’t know that this is the best solution, but it is something to discuss.

Thomas D · Mar 9, 2017

Send it to RHTAC and see what they say.

EdA · Mar 10, 2017

A rule to limit entries in field trials was proposed a decade ago and it went nowhere. It is very simple and equitable to all, everyone enters one dog, the process continues until a predetermined number is met then everyone gets to enter one more. The entry is spread equitably and people with a few dogs are guaranteed a spot. Those with multiple dogs have a priority list for entry.

cripes · Mar 10, 2017

freezeland said:
Thomas D said:

I don't have any skin in the HT game, but I would agree with Breck's observation in post #4. From a developers standpoint I'd lay odds that there has been code developed to make multiple entries with a single mouse click. They only way would be for EE to limit the handlers entries, and even then the developer could just modify the code to accommodate limited entries and still enter the event faster than anyone can type. I hope you guys find a fix.

Click to expand...

Sounds like an Ebay snipe program. Easy to do and you don't even need your pc to be on.

mjh345 · Mar 10, 2017

EdA said:
A rule to limit entries in field trials was proposed a decade ago and it went nowhere. It is very simple and equitable to all, everyone enters one dog, the process continues until a predetermined number is met then everyone gets to enter one more. The entry is spread equitably and people with a few dogs are guaranteed a spot. Those with multiple dogs have a priority list for entry.

Would welcome a system built along these lines.
In a situation where there is limited supply of resources for example a 60 dog Master it is unfair to allow one person to take 30 or more of the spots and deny 29 other people from having a chance to even get one spot

22899 · Mar 10, 2017

I posted the following in the 60 dog double master thread.. Prolly should been here...

I agree with folks not being Nobel... But maybe its time for SOME to consider developing a standard of etiquette when it comes to testing dogs...

Fishermen have LONG had to deal with crowded conditions.. think of the amount of resource they have to enjoy their popular activity.. Dog people generally have far less rescource available.. Etiquette MUST be instilled in my humble opinion..

This is one example of an unwritten law when fly fishing Western rivers..

Don’t be a “hole hog” and sit in the same water for several hours. If you have caught several trout move on to another location, or offer others the opportunity to fish in the same run and enjoy success like you have experienced. Share the wealth!

So,,,,what if we applied the same type courtesy?? If you are Titled,,maybe step back and realise the desired of others to achieve the same title as you have.. Don't take advantage of the testing arena to Train, and keep your dog in a test atmosphere, when you are already titled..

I understand the desire for the Master National ,but , If you really don't have any desire to actually attend,,OR you have already attended several with the same dog,,and that dogis a 30 times Master National success,,,, well maybe consider someone else instead of YOU!!!

Running Master tests with a dog that is already Titled, just so you can exclaim to the world that your dog Qualified,and you have no intention of going to the event ,,in MY OPINION,,, that is selfish... In the same vein, If you have a Titled Master dog,,,and you attended several Master Nationals,,and have a 5 times Master National Champion..... Read the fishing etiquittett above,, and move on from your hole to something else..

The sport of dog testing is popular.... so much so,, people make a lucrative living doing it... There has to be a distinction between those people and a hobbiest.... but BOTH entities should have SOME degree of etiquette..

I think an attitude like this would go a LONG, LONG way..

As usual,,just my opinion..

Hunt'EmUp · Mar 10, 2017

EdA said:
A rule to limit entries in field trials was proposed a decade ago and it went nowhere. It is very simple and equitable to all, everyone enters one dog, the process continues until a predetermined number is met then everyone gets to enter one more. The entry is spread equitably and people with a few dogs are guaranteed a spot. Those with multiple dogs have a priority list for entry.

Would think it would be impossible for FT to limit as the entire premises of the sport is to find the best dog through competition; how can you say you had the best dog of all comers if you limited who could participate. Takes a heavy tole on the club, but any type of limit in FT just strike me as counter to the venues overall goal

HT on the other hand are simply to a standard, and AKC has already allowed clubs to limit, I feel it's only a matter of time before they in someway limit the # of dog a single handler can run-sign up etc.; It would be the simplest and most effective solution. UKC-HRC has already limits a handler to 12 or 8 dogs, makes every thing run way more smoothy; sign-ups, test, organization etc. when your not waiting for one person to travel through all the different stakes with overly many dogs

SWIPER · Mar 10, 2017

1) Let clubs have at least 25% of the entry, for codes for people who work at the test. This will increase help for clubs to put on the test. This will also free up help for
other stakes.
2) Why not let owner handlers enter the 1st hour the test opens, this would encourage handlers to run their own dogs.
3) Owner entry system, to make the owners more responsible if they want to play the game and not just throw money around and have the pro take care of it.
4) Go to a maximum 3 dog entry before you have to re-enter, this allows more chances to enter.

1) People don't realize that clubs went and put limits on the entry because a lot of clubs don't have the members that want to bust their ass and then listen to people complain about limits and not enough help at tests. Not everyone can be a Marshall or take birds at the line.
2) All clubs are the same no matter how many members they have, they always need help to make things run smoother on a weekend.
3) The answer isn't just go and hire help, cuz anyone who hires help knows that it's expensive and usually don't show up next time.
4) All the people that go to the Master National help to make things go smoothly. And these are the same people that clubs put on the test for.

I know there are people that help but every Club always needs a few more.

jforqueran · Mar 11, 2017

2) Why not let owner handlers enter the 1st hour the test opens, this would encourage handlers to run their own dogs.

I have been reading all of the responses to date. Some pretty good ones so far, the one above is the one that makes the most sense to me. This sport was created to allow the amateur a venue to compete in besides the FT game. It is primarily dominated now by Pros. The most frustrating thing to me is that one Person (Pro) can get 15-20 or more dogs entered and I cant even get my 1 dog entered.

These test are put on by people like my self and others that only have one or a few dogs. I have worked my arse off for almost the last two years getting her ready to run Master. I have another almost ready to run, don't know how this is going to go if I cant even get my one that is ready to run in!! I have been attending test, volunteering my time to learn about the sport. I currently only belong to one club but, I volunteer to help at every test I attend.

I do not have the answer to solve this problem. But, I know something has to be done to give this sport back to the amateur that it was created for. The above solution makes sense to me. This will allow the amateur the best chance at succeeding to get entered. Maybe this will force the businessmen (Pros) to figure out how to make their living somewhere else. While I realize that they did not create the problem, they are part of the problem. You do not see any amateur filling 15-20 spots in every test. If something can be done to help us amateurs out, and they (Pros) are real good businessmen. They will not be affected!

22899 · Mar 12, 2017

SWIPER said:
1) Let clubs have at least 25% of the entry, for codes for people who work at the test. This will increase help for clubs to put on the test. This will also free up help for
other stakes.
2) Why not let owner handlers enter the 1st hour the test opens, this would encourage handlers to run their own dogs.
3) Owner entry system, to make the owners more responsible if they want to play the game and not just throw money around and have the pro take care of it.
4) Go to a maximum 3 dog entry before you have to re-enter, this allows more chances to enter.

1) People don't realize that clubs went and put limits on the entry because a lot of clubs don't have the members that want to bust their ass and then listen to people complain about limits and not enough help at tests. Not everyone can be a Marshall or take birds at the line.
2) All clubs are the same no matter how many members they have, they always need help to make things run smoother on a weekend.
3) The answer isn't just go and hire help, cuz anyone who hires help knows that it's expensive and usually don't show up next time.
4) All the people that go to the Master National help to make things go smoothly. And these are the same people that clubs put on the test for.

I know there are people that help but every Club always needs a few more.

It just amazes me!! Great big test. lots of people/ handlers... Each handler assigned a number.... A LOT of people/handlers sitting in gallery just making comments....

Seems to me,, there could be a required rotation using handler running numbers as to WHO When and where those people go out and help...

The only time I can remember running a test where I didn't go throw, plant blinds, shag birds ect, ect,,, was when I was running for my master Title.... The powers to be TOLD ME,, ORDERED me to sit down and concentrate at the task at hand..... I appreciated it,, but,, In reality,,,, probably wouldn't have hurt a thing for me to help..

Everyone gets a chance to run,and returns the favor to throw for the next guy..

Don't give me that some cant throw.... I'm not very good at it......There are devices.... They use a stick on me,,, but there are other methods..

Ideas needed on how to make the Master test entry system fairer

Hunt'EmUp

mjh345

fishduck

T. Mac

HoHum's Retrievers

Hunt'EmUp

LGH

bruce

LabskeBill

Rusty Champion

Thomas D

EdA

cripes

mjh345

22899

Hunt'EmUp

SWIPER

jforqueran

22899

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