Dog vision

John Robinson · Aug 10, 2012

I'm starting a new thread because the thread regarding straight back (directly behind the guns) marks was getting derailed by a discussion on dog vision. First let me state for the record, that I think straight back, or straight in throws are unfair, as a dog regardless of how good or bad his vision is, wouldn't see an arc at all, just a straight up and down bird, if he could see that.

Regarding eyesight, LostWY posted a scientific article that did a good job explaining how dogs in general are quite nearsighted compared to humans. I'm not disputing that, but I am interested in the degree of variation. For example, my wife and I are both human (I hope anyway), yet my eyesight is 20-12.5 and Cheryl's is 20-600, quite a wide disparity. Howards and my point is that field trail bred dogs probably have much better distance vision that what is the norm for dogs in general.

My dog Gus has always been an excellent marker, and though we all know there are many factors beyond good vision that makes a good marker, it has to start with the dog's ability to pick out a gunner and see the throw. So with it already being stated that Gus could mark a tick off a bug at 300 yards, we started questioning his vision when he couldn't seem to see a cast at 300-400 yards, just sat there staring back at the line while I did big walking "overs". So I took him in to a canine opthomologist who did a very complete set of eye exams. One of the exams tested vision the way they do it on babies who are unable to communicate, ( what is the lowest line you can read?). She said Gus had the greatest distance vision she had ever seen in a dog. Now I don't know where that puts him compared to my 12-12.5 human vision, but I have seen him mark, so I know it's good. This goes to Howard's and my point, some dos, particularly well bred field trial dogs must have much better distance vision than the average dog.

Regarding the blind retrieve not seeing the cast issue, we discovered that Gus wasn't even looking at me. Whether this was by accident or a purposeful avoidance, we now knew he could see us if he looked at us, so we were able to deal with it and haven't had a problem since.

John

john fallon · Aug 10, 2012

John Robinson said:
I'm starting a new thread because the thread regarding straight back (directly behind the guns) marks was getting derailed by a discussion on dog vision. First let me state for the record, that I think straight back, or straight in throws are unfair, as a dog regardless of how good or bad his vision is, wouldn't see an arc at all, just a straight up and down bird, if he could see that.

Regarding eyesight, LostWY posted a scientific article that did a good job explaining how dogs in general are quite nearsighted compared to humans. I'm not disputing that, but I am interested in the degree of variation. For example, my wife and I are both human (I hope anyway), yet my eyesight is 20-12.5 and Cheryl's is 20-600, quite a wide disparity. Howards and my point is that field trail bred dogs probably have much better distance vision that what is the norm for dogs in general.

My dog Gus has always been an excellent marker, and though we all know there are many factors beyond good vision that makes a good marker, it has to start with the dog's ability to pick out a gunner and see the throw. So with it already being stated that Gus could mark a tick off a bug at 300 yards, we started questioning his vision when he couldn't seem to see a cast at 300-400 yards, just sat there staring back at the line while I did big walking "overs". So I took him in to a canine opthomologist who did a very complete set of eye exams. One of the exams tested vision the way they do it on babies who are unable to communicate, ( what is the lowest line you can read?). She said Gus had the greatest distance vision she had ever seen in a dog. Now I don't know where that puts him compared to my 12-12.5 human vision, but I have seen him mark, so I know it's good. This goes to Howard's and my point, some dos, particularly well bred field trial dogs must have much better distance vision than the average dog.

Regarding the blind retrieve not seeing the cast issue, we discovered that Gus wasn't even looking at me. Whether this was by accident or a purposeful avoidance, we now knew he could see us if he looked at us, so we were able to deal with it and haven't had a problem since.

John

I posted this before but I think it is worth repeating

"To put these distances into perspective....Marks accurately seen by dogs at over 400 yd are quite incredible when one considers that their vision on average is about 20-70 when compared to ours.

With that vision, dogs see a 400 yd mark as we (those of us with natural or corrected 20-20 vision) see would see one at 1400 yd,
A 500 yd Mark would then be 1750 yd or 5250 feet, just a few feet short of a mile. When one couples this with the delay in which the report is heard, the ultra long mark is often past the top of the arc before any attention getting sound is heard.

At over 400 yd...We in the FT judging community are really pushing the envelope in this regard. "

john

jeff t. · Aug 10, 2012

This thread reminded me of this article

http://workingdogs.com/vision_coile.htm

John Robinson · Aug 10, 2012

jeff t. said:
This thread reminded me of this article

http://workingdogs.com/vision_coile.htm

Good article, she does mention various breeds including breeds that require good vision in order to do their job well, such as retrievers. It would be interesting to take a sample of our top marking field trial dogs and put them through the same test. I would bet that they score considerably higher than the average, family pet Lab or Golden. How close they are to human visual accuity is anyone's guess, probably still far short, but I've judged a lot of dogs and I swear I can see some of their heads move as they follow the throw of the bird.

John

RookieTrainer · Aug 10, 2012

I can watch my dog's head move on a short mark as he tracks it. I can also see him move slightly with his eyes as the marks get longer. So I know immediately that he did not see a mark when he doesn't.

EdA · Aug 10, 2012

jeff t. said:
This thread reminded me of this article

http://workingdogs.com/vision_coile.htm

An interesting read but quasi-scientific at best without real evidence of what they see other than it is different than human vision. Anecdotal evidence from dog people's observations is every bit as valid until someone develops a method of communicating with dogs so they can reveal what they see. This is a repetitive discussion in which we all seek a basis to support our opinions and prejudices.

For whatever it is worth I agree with Howard and John. For what they need to see our field trial dogs have some remarkable ability to see, seek, and identify a very specific location much better than any human no matter how acute their vision. Efforts to compare canine and human eyesight are rather silly since they have no need to visualize much of what we visualize.

sixpacklabs · Aug 10, 2012

I think "good vision" may mean something a bit different for dogs than it does for us. We humans are all about acuity, binocular vision, technicolor, etc. As descendants of predators, dogs are much more about motion detection, peripheral vision, seeing in dim light, etc. If you think about dogs in the context of their evolutionary history, it's not hard to imagine how their eyes might be adapted quite differently from ours. I get the impression that visual acuity, at least in the sense that it's important to humans, is simply not all that important to dogs' vision.

I'd think it would be motion detection (and tracking) rather than visual acuity that would come to the fore when a dog is tracking the trajectory of a mark at a distance. The article available at this link: http://www.performancedogtraining.com/wp.../dog-vision-miller-murphy....
mentions a study done in 1936 to test the visual sensitivity to motion of 14 police dogs. The researchers found that the most sensitive dogs "could recognize moving objects at a distance of 810 to 900 m, but could recognize the same object, when stationary, at a distance of only 585 m or less." The article doesn't say what size moving object was involved...whether it was gnat/duck/schoolbus sized would of course would be a factor.

There's some recent research relevant to the question of visual acuity in dogs. Apparently there's a lot of variation among breeds in terms of how the cells that are responsible for sharp vision are arranged in the retina. Humans have a fovea, a central area where the receptors involved in sharp vision are located. Some breeds, particularly the short-faced lap dogs like pugs have a similar central area in their eyes. Their vision is more like ours, at least in terms of having a central area of sharpest focus. Dogs with longer muzzles have their receptors arranged in a "visual streak," a horizontal band across the retina. These breeds have better peripheral vision. Long-muzzled sight hounds like Afghans have the most pronounced visual streak, and consequently have the best peripheral vision. So I guess if you want acuity, get yourself a pug. If you want your dog to pick out marks at 300 or 400 yds, best stick with the retriever. There's some info about this here: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s953902.htm

jeff t. · Aug 10, 2012

EdA said:
An interesting read but quasi-scientific at best without real evidence of what they see other than it is different than human vision. Anecdotal evidence from dog people's observations is every bit as valid until someone develops a method of communicating with dogs so they can reveal what they see. This is a repetitive discussion in which we all seek a basis to support our opinions and prejudices.

For whatever it is worth I agree with Howard and John. For what they need to see our field trial dogs have some remarkable ability to see, seek, and identify a very specific location much better than any human no matter how acute their vision. Efforts to compare canine and human eyesight are rather silly since they have no need to visualize much of what we visualize.

FWIW, it is my understanding that some field trial folks who are considering started dogs are having the dog's eye geometry measured to determine if the dog is nearsighted or farsighted as yet another clearance before purchasing the dog.

Tobias · Apr 14, 2017

Old thread but good discussion. And one I find myself contemplating a lot....

I just watched a youtube video of a young dog training for derbies. Hip pocket double with the go bird at 200 yd and memory at over 500 yd. My opinion is that at this distance the dog is learning to run to the gun. In fact that is exactly what this dog did (after first running to the old fall and being called back amd relined).
made me wonder if any studies (in the field) have been done to determine actual distance vision. Background plays a roll, I know.

John Robinson · Apr 14, 2017

Tobias said:
Old thread but good discussion. And one I find myself contemplating a lot....

I just watched a youtube video of a young dog training for derbies. Hip pocket double with the go bird at 200 yd and memory at over 500 yd. My opinion is that at this distance the dog is learning to run to the gun. In fact that is exactly what this dog did (after first running to the old fall and being called back amd relined).
made me wonder if any studies (in the field) have been done to determine actual distance vision. Background plays a roll, I know.

Wow, you found an old thread with Fallon in it that also mentions the late great Howard!

I agree with you on the youtube video set up, that dog got there on training, but that doesn't mean dogs can't see the arc of a throw a long way away, which to me is 350-400 yards. I really question whether even the best marking Lab or Golden can see the bird in the air at 500 yards. I assume in good conditions a dog could pick up a white coat that far. Like you said, I wish we could really test their eyesight, though I guess you could say we test it pretty well at every field trial.

Dog vision

John Robinson

john fallon

jeff t.

John Robinson

RookieTrainer

EdA

sixpacklabs

jeff t.

Tobias

John Robinson

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