RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

Puppy confused and no-go on simple marks

Jump to Latest
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
#21 · (Edited)
Do what the pup needs. The pup's sessions need to be fun and trust must be restored. Right now any form of
skill set work should be the last thing on the OP's list. When a pup has sized up his trainer as not such
a cool person, that trainer must convince the pup that he has changed. That certainly will not happen if the
trainer's needs are first on the list of things to do.

In addition, over-compensating with flyers assumes the pup is conditioned to gunfire which has probably not
been done. There are less dramatic presentations of birds that can be just as effective. Whatever is done must
have a lasting impact and drifting back to the trainer's needs/mindset should be avoided.

Training is a challenge even when things go right. Avoiding mistakes is often difficult when not knowing what one
looks like until after the fact. Don't guess or wing it! Plan each session carefully. Have a rationale......why are we
doing this? How will be start.....when will it end?

A well planned session begins with something the pup can do well (warm up/fun). Then you transition into the
specific new thing you are teaching. And lastly, finish with something else that he can do well.

You've lost your pup's trust......gaining it back should be the primary focus........not what comes next in the
program.
 
#22 ·
polmaise said:
But in this case ..The dog didn't understand a correction ! ? .. It refused. Or was confused ?, or took the right decision of ' well if I do nothin, I ain't done wrong' ? ..
Perhaps the dog didn't understand appraisal rather than correction ?...after all it's a puppy ;-)... who has been through FF .
....
It may well , 'should have been through FTP water force and swim by, but it wasn't. That don't make the dog or the handler right or wrong , and 'Farmer' ain't wrong in his program ,is he ?....
Click to expand...
Of course it didn't understand the correction! it hasn't be through the training! That absolutely makes the handler wrong, and if you're suggesting Danny Farmer would advise that correction in that situation, you sir, are wrong. And I feel very confident in saying that.
 
#23 ·
Daren and Polmaise - you guys are mired by the language barrier that is the Atlantic ocean.

Daren - Robert is simply saying "Maybe there's more to the problem here than the dog not having been through the appropriate program steps. Maybe, even if it had - a correction is the incorrect response to the problem." We Americans are quick to the collar correction if it's available to us and sometimes (like this) even if it isn't. Maybe - the problem here is confidence based as opposed to disobedience? That's the way I read the responses. I know Robert's thinking perhaps better than most on the forum.

Robert - Daren et al are pointing out that this dog, based on the normal course of training in the US (program or no program) hasn't experienced reinforcement for getting into the water and swimming in a controlled setting yet, therefore - trying to reinforce your "go" command in a live situation is unfair and likely not going to work.

BTW Bohn is after the confidence issue here too with the "let em have fun" comment.

It's a common viewpoint in the US to let em get wildly bold and confident then rein them back in with pressure. This comes from the days when pressure was always fairly severe. It doesn't really represent today's world where we can tickle a dog vs. smack the **** out of it to get what we want. It's clearly not representative of the development methods you folks across the pond would use in the absence by and large or remote collars.

Cultural differences in viewpoint here are obvious.
 
#24 ·
Randy Bohn said:
I would check back on the "steadying up my dog" thread and ask the people who said steadying up is a good thing and ask them.....NOW WHAT.....i see one person already changed their mind about breaking dogs is ok again....

I would shorten up your distance and let them break....last thing you need is to correct your dog in anyway shape or form at a young tender age on water...you can steady up your dog later....I promise....Randy (And I stand by my statement....let them have fun)
Click to expand...



I'm really confused. Do you not think a 10 month old pup shouldnt be any kind of steady? Steadying may or may not be the issue here but if it is I would say it was more to do with being done incorrectly than too early. That is a question only the OP can answer. At this point I would say let'em break too. Randy please respond to other thread so as not to hijack this one.
 
#25 ·
Steve Shaver said:
I'm really confused. Do you not think a 10 month old pup shouldnt be any kind of steady? Steadying may or may not be the issue here but if it is I would say it was more to do with being done incorrectly than too early. That is a question only the OP can answer. At this point I would say let'em break too. Randy please respond to other thread so as not to hijack this one.
Click to expand...
Steve, I think he's saying this 10 month old dog doesn't need to be steadied. This isn't Ritz or Cosmo, it's a dog of questionable taken and drive that has been trained into a hole that the dog doesn't know how to climb out of. Some of us are just saying, at this point, with this dog, breaking is the least of our concerns. We can fix that later, right now we need to make it fun again. If a dog won't even retrieve, you've got nothing to work with.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
all great points. thank you. my intention for not running FTP yet is because we have 3 junior tests in the next few months and I didn't want to be overloading her with info. FTP and casting I thought would be a good thing to start after running simple marks tests.
 
#27 ·
overtothetruck said:
low 2 nicks for not going. did a "no, nick, heel" resend. i haven't tried with her running from someone else.
Click to expand...
Bumpers or birds? Birds are way better at this stage. Take all the pressure off, even the nicks. Try to get somebody to throw for you, lots of hup-hup encouragement, make it fun again. At this point we don't know if your dog just doesn't like water, but hopefully you can build the drive up to the point getting the bird outweighs the fear. Trying to force her to do it is only going to build resentment.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Not skipping, just waiting. Running a few hunt tests in the next month and don't want to be doing things pressure heavy and cram her with too much info when all I'm trying to get is her to pick up simple marks for the next month.
John Robinson said:
Good point, by skipping FTP the tool wasn't built in for the dog to understand the correction for the balk at the waters edge. There's a reason programs sequence tasks the way they do. You have to step by step build up the toolbox in the dog's head.
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
using birds, remote launched. Loves water. We went out for early teal season with the 3 year old and she has just as much drive in the boat with gun fire and is taking to hunting really quick. I do need to step back. Thank you.
John Robinson said:
Bumpers or birds? Birds are way better at this stage. Take all the pressure off, even the nicks. Try to get somebody to throw for you, lots of hup-hup encouragement, make it fun again. At this point we don't know if your dog just doesn't like water, but hopefully you can build the drive up to the point getting the bird outweighs the fear. Trying to force her to do it is only going to build resentment.
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
damn, lady. who said I lost my temper? i had a no go on challenging water marks with my 3 year old and this is how i corrected his no go's and it solved it right away. Judge Judy over here....
ErinsEdge said:
Loosing your temper and taking it out on the dog is NEVER a part of any program sequence. You can't figure that out?
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
These are all great ideas. Thank you. Now this is what I came here looking for. I really appreciate it.
Evans Creek said:
There is no one or two sentence answer that can fix this. And, without seeing the dog these suggestions are just that, suggestions. Here is something to think about though. First off live bird chasing to make sure the drive is still there. You also need to to finish force to pile. You said you used pressure because you thought it was a refusal but if you have not properly forced to pile then your pup had no idea what the pressure was for. If you do not go to FTP and complete it properly you will have a dog that shuts down with pressure or when confused. Neither are wanted if training any dog. If it were mine, I would go back to what is familiar to the dog. FF, then go into FTP all while allowing for free bird chases in different sessions. Once out of FTP I would start with short marks in the yard then after several successful sessions move back to the field. I would not throw a water mark again until this is done. The reason for not doing that before is that you have no idea what the pup associated that correcrion or pressure with, it could have been the water in her mind that trigger this. So to fix this you short sessions that end in success to build confidence and clarity. Again without seeing the dog this is all speculation.
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Great points. I will focus on all of this going forward. Thank you.
KwickLabs said:
Do what the pup needs. The pup's sessions need to be fun and trust must be restored. Right now any form of
skill set work should be the last thing on the OP's list. When a pup has sized up his trainer as not such
a cool person, that trainer must convince the pup that he has changed. That certainly will not happen if the
trainer's needs are first on the list of things to do.

In addition, over-compensating with flyers assumes the pup is conditioned to gunfire which has probably not
been done. There are less dramatic presentations of birds that can be just as effective. Whatever is done must
have a lasting impact and drifting back to the trainer's needs/mindset should be avoided.

Training is a challenge even when things go right. Avoiding mistakes is often difficult when not knowing what one
looks like until after the fact. Don't guess or wing it! Plan each session carefully. Have a rationale......why are we
doing this? How will be start.....when will it end?

A well planned session begins with something the pup can do well (warm up/fun). Then you transition into the
specific new thing you are teaching. And lastly, finish with something else that he can do well.

You've lost your pup's trust......gaining it back should be the primary focus........not what comes next in the
program.
Click to expand...
 
#35 ·
overtothetruck said:
damn, lady. who said I lost my temper? i had a no go on challenging water marks with my 3 year old and this is how i corrected his no go's and it solved it right away. Judge Judy over here....
Click to expand...
So you thought you knew what you were doing because it worked on the 3 yo and you thought the 10 mo old refused. You will find out what works for a dog thru a program doesn't work for a young dog the hard way.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#36 ·
DarrinGreene said:
Daren and Polmaise - you guys are mired by the language barrier that is the Atlantic ocean.

Daren - Robert is simply saying "Maybe there's more to the problem here than the dog not having been through the appropriate program steps. Maybe, even if it had - a correction is the incorrect response to the problem." We Americans are quick to the collar correction if it's available to us and sometimes (like this) even if it isn't. Maybe - the problem here is confidence based as opposed to disobedience? That's the way I read the responses. I know Robert's thinking perhaps better than most on the forum.

Robert - Daren et al are pointing out that this dog, based on the normal course of training in the US (program or no program) hasn't experienced reinforcement for getting into the water and swimming in a controlled setting yet, therefore - trying to reinforce your "go" command in a live situation is unfair and likely not going to work.

BTW Bohn is after the confidence issue here too with the "let em have fun" comment.

It's a common viewpoint in the US to let em get wildly bold and confident then rein them back in with pressure. This comes from the days when pressure was always fairly severe. It doesn't really represent today's world where we can tickle a dog vs. smack the **** out of it to get what we want. It's clearly not representative of the development methods you folks across the pond would use in the absence by and large or remote collars.

Cultural differences in viewpoint here are obvious.
Click to expand...
OP , Would do best seeing a trainer Darrin ;-)
 
#37 ·
ErinsEdge said:
So you thought you knew what you were doing because it worked on the 3 yo and you thought the 10 mo old refused. You will find out what works for a dog thru a program doesn't work for a young dog the hard way.
Click to expand...
Never thought that Nancy and I would become BUDS:p...But this trainer needs some major help and it ain't coming off the internet....I have FF over 200 dogs so I've seen a bunch of labs...this guy sounds like this is his 2nd and ready to defend an undefendable event.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
How about you phrase it like "See a trainer, they can help you much better than someone on here." And yes, i've only trained a handful of dogs but making someone feel stupid for asking an honest question and admitting an honest mistake must make you feel superior., so good for you. Also don't jump to conclusions that I'm a guy. Maybe try to help newcomers rather than alienating them. Have a great day.
Terry Marshall said:
Never thought that Nancy and I would become BUDS:p...But this trainer needs some major help and it ain't coming off the internet....I have FF over 200 dogs so I've seen a bunch of labs...this guy sounds like this is his 2nd and ready to defend an undefendable event.
Click to expand...
 
#40 ·
overtothetruck said:
How about you phrase it like "See a trainer, they can help you much better than someone on here." And yes, i've only trained a handful of dogs but making someone feel stupid for asking an honest question and admitting an honest mistake must make you feel superior., so good for you. Also don't jump to conclusions that I'm a guy. Maybe try to help newcomers rather than alienating them. Have a great day.
Click to expand...
Don't get your panties in a bunch - what you did, even though it was a mistake and you admitted it - is considered by many to be abusive. You're gonna catch some crap for making a mistake like that. Sort out the useful stuff and just move on.
 
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
About this Discussion
41 Replies
17 Participants
Last post:
Terry Marshall
RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF
posts
1.5M
members
36K
Since
2003
A forum community dedicated to retriever owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, training, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
General Retriever Training Forum Event Information AKC Field Trials Equipment, Gear & Miscellaneous Classifieds Training