Shot Flyers in Junior?

HuntinDawg · May 2, 2018

I had not attended an AKC test in 9-10 years until recently when my daughter handled our dog in a Junior test. She had handled her twice in HRC Started and I was explaining the differences (very few by rule in Started/Junior) and I mentioned that there would be a shot flyer. I was interested to see that as our dog is generally pretty amped up without a shot flyer. I was surprised that there was no shot flyer in Junior, but there were at the Master flight that we watched.

In the past the only AKC tests that I ever attended that didn't include shot flyers were in Tennessee where there were some legal issues (didn't apply for the necessary permit within the allotted timeframe), which was clearly not the case here since they were using them in Master.

Are shot flyers becoming less common in Junior (or in general) in AKC HT? If so, that's a darn shame.

Dave Farrar · May 2, 2018

Every Junior test I ran always had a shot flyer. Some had 1 on the land series and 1 on the water series.

fishduck · May 2, 2018

I prefer to shoot a flyer in Junior both as a judge and a club member. There are some logistical issues that must be considered. The first is the club members that are available as shooters. A clubs experienced members are normally running Master and Senior. Sometimes it can be very difficult to get someone to agree to shoot at a different stake. Often the least experienced shooters end up at Junior. Junior IMHO really needs the best shooters because the dogs are easily distracted by delays, fly aways and inconsistent fall areas. If an experienced club member is available, that club member is normally going to marshal. This is priority because you need someone willing to explain the process to new handlers that only see "pros" being bumped to the front of the running order.

There are a lot of reasons that a club might decide the flyer isn't a good idea at Junior. If it is a concern, call and ask prior to entering the test. In my area most clubs do throw one flyer in Junior.

HuntinDawg · May 2, 2018

fishduck said:
I prefer to shoot a flyer in Junior both as a judge and a club member. There are some logistical issues that must be considered. The first is the club members that are available as shooters. A clubs experienced members are normally running Master and Senior. Sometimes it can be very difficult to get someone to agree to shoot at a different stake. Often the least experienced shooters end up at Junior. Junior IMHO really needs the best shooters because the dogs are easily distracted by delays, fly aways and inconsistent fall areas. If an experienced club member is available, that club member is normally going to marshal. This is priority because you need someone willing to explain the process to new handlers that only see "pros" being bumped to the front of the running order.

There are a lot of reasons that a club might decide the flyer isn't a good idea at Junior. If it is a concern, call and ask prior to entering the test. In my area most clubs do throw one flyer in Junior.

Not upset, but disappointed. Not trying to make a big deal, just didn't know if something had changed. I actually thought it was a requirement.

In the discussion of pros/cons for HRC/AKC HT one of the "pros" for AKC HT is you get shot flyers IMO.

I've e-mailed the hunt secretary for the next test we are considering entering but have received no response yet (just inquired yesterday, so no biggie).

The good news is that my daughter is really enjoying handling her dog.

Thanks for your response.

fishduck · May 2, 2018

HuntinDawg said:
Not upset, but disappointed. Not trying to make a big deal, just didn't know if something had changed. I actually thought it was a requirement.

In the discussion of pros/cons for HRC/AKC HT one of the "pros" for AKC HT is you get shot flyers IMO.

I've e-mailed the hunt secretary for the next test we are considering entering but have received no response yet (just inquired yesterday, so no biggie).

The good news is that my daughter is really enjoying handling her dog.

Thanks for your response.

Enjoy the time you are spending with your daughter!!!! They grow up fast. Kudos for getting her involved!

mikehmike · May 2, 2018

I can tell you in a specific case when my dog was going for his last JH pass, he got a live flyer and the shooter winged it...bird proceeded to go into deep cover and my dog lost it...couldn't find it and failed. I'm not into reinventing the wheel but that day I was against live flyers in junior

Hunt'EmUp · May 2, 2018

Hmm interesting I sort've thought they were a requirement, heck it's standard to get 2; 1 on land and 1 on water around here. I believe there would be highly upset handlers if they only got 1 flyer, let alone none. They'd most likely be asking what their $70-$80 entry was actually paying for

.

Karen Klotthor · May 2, 2018

As Mark stated , not all clubs have the help in the Junior level If the person shooting flyers keep missing that is worse than no flyers at all. Down South, you rarely if ever see 2 flyers for the same stake on one day.

Ron in Portland · May 2, 2018

This is what it currently says in Chapter 3 of the rule book,

"A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all
test levels. Only birds shot as flyers during the event
or euthanized within 24 hours of the event start time as
stated in the premium may be used at an event.

At least one live flyer must be used in a Senior or
Master level test unless the use of live ammunition
is prohibited by law or policy of the land managing
organization at the testing location."

So, according to the rules, you aren't required to shoot a flyer in Junior (although you are required to make two available for the judges to use at their discretion). With that said, I've not seen a Junior test in the Pacific Northwest when they didn't shoot a flyer, although typically it's only in the first series.

I had copies of older rule books on my computer. The wording was exactly the same as above in the 2010 rulebook; however, in the one I had from 2005, all it stated was:

"A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all
test levels."

I suppose, based on this language, there wasn't a requirement in any series to shoot live flyers.

jacduck · May 3, 2018

My argument against flyers in Junior is because of the # of times I have seen birds come down in multiple pieces. Understand that JR gets the beginner shooters and even though our club tells them to show up with open chokes, some don't know what an open choke is. The 2nd reason is many JR dogs have not seen a flyer (sometimes not even a bird) and a test is a poor place to get them started IMHO. For me JR is the place we get new people invited into the deep pit we dwell in.

mapman · May 3, 2018

I have never seen a shot flyer in any junior tests in my part of Texas.

mwk56 · May 3, 2018

In the upper midwest (Iowa, IL, MN, WI) we have always had shot fliers in JH. And so far, all the tests I have attended in WA and MT have also had fliers in Junior.

Meredith

paul young · May 3, 2018

There are no good reasons not to use flyers in JH tests, unless prohibited by law.

There are, however, a nearly endless number of excuses not to test Junior dogs fully and properly. -Paul

paul young · May 3, 2018

" The 2nd reason is many JR dogs have not seen a flyer (sometimes not even a bird) and a test is a poor place to get them started IMHO. For me JR is the place we get new people invited into the deep pit we dwell in. "

In my opinion, if a retriever will not pick up a freshly shot bird, it is not worthy of the JH title. That is the MINIMUM requirement necessary for a retriever to be considered a useful hunting companion.-Paul

HuntinDawg · May 3, 2018

Well I heard back from the hunt test secretary for the test we're thinking of running next and it seems that there won't likely be a flyer in Junior there either. Hunt test secretary said that there generally isn't enough help at Junior. All of the experienced help is at Master.

I'm not trying to make a federal case out of this, but that is a bummer IMO. I'm with Paul. Flyers are good. Flyers are probably the #1 thing I prefer about AKC HT vs. HRC.

Hunt'EmUp · May 3, 2018

HuntinDawg said:
I'm not trying to make a federal case out of this, but that is a bummer IMO. I'm with Paul. Flyers are good. Flyers are probably the #1 thing I prefer about AKC HT vs. HRC.

Hmm If it were me without a flyer I would just run HRC, where your guaranteed all of your birds regardless, no call-backs. Of course where your located HRC is probably a dime a dozen, and AKC a bit more sparse. I think I would continue e-mailing clubs before putting $ down on a dead bird only AKC hunt test. There are many tests that will have a Junior flyer, might as well go to those ones instead. What are JH fees these days? Western US we have to keep our HRC started tests lower priced, because they can't have a flyer. That was probably the biggest culture shock for introducing the venue out here. Junior handlers were pretty adamant about wanting flyers, more so than the upper stakes. Perhaps this is because most of them can't give their dogs very many if any in training.

I don't really see the big deal with having a flyer, if you have to have one in SH/MH. You still will need 2 or more sets of gunners. Gunner shoot flyer for SH in the morning and the flyer for JH in the afternoon. Master has too many entries usually to be able to switch gunners btw stakes. But senior entries are usually less or equal to junior.

HuntinDawg · May 3, 2018

Hunt'EmUp said:
Hmm If it were me without a flyer I would just run HRC, where your guaranteed all of your birds regardless, no call-backs. Of course where your located HRC is probably a dime a dozen, and AKC a bit more sparse. I think I would continue e-mailing clubs before putting $ down on a dead bird only AKC hunt test. There are many tests that will have a Junior flyer, might as well go to those ones instead. What are JH fees these days? Western US we have to keep our HRC started tests lower priced, because they can't have a flyer. That was probably the biggest culture shock for introducing the venue out here. Junior handlers were pretty adamant about wanting flyers, more so than the upper stakes. Perhaps this is because most of them can't give their dogs very many if any in training.

I don't really see the big deal with having a flyer, if you have to have one in SH/MH. You still will need 2 or more sets of gunners. Gunner shoot flyer for SH in the morning and the flyer for JH in the afternoon. Master has too many entries usually to be able to switch gunners btw stakes. But senior entries are usually less or equal to junior.

I'm just looking for handling opportunities for my daughter regardless of affiliation. Down here the hunt test season is almost over. First I disregard the weekends that I'll be spending at travel softball tournaments (with my younger daughter) and then look for hunt tests to attend with my older daughter on the weekends without softball tournaments. I can't be too picky at this point if I want to get her some opportunities. This next test will likely be the last one until next spring. This daughter will be in high school marching band this Fall and taking an extra class, AP classes, "gifted" classes, etc., so I assume she will be in a real time crunch this Fall (she'll be a HS freshman).

Kyle Bertram · May 3, 2018

It's the judges call whether you shoot a flyer or not. In many cases and this one in particular when the JH numbers get up near 50, many judges opt to not have a flyer for time management.

dr_dog_guy · May 4, 2018

We've always had one flyer in Junior in NM.

P T Brown · May 4, 2018

I guess at $75 to enter I'd be pissed if there was no flyer in a Junior. I have never seen a Junior in Minnesota without a flyer. I recently attended a AKC seminar and it was clear that the presenter felt that there should be a flyer in Juniors.

Shot Flyers in Junior?

HuntinDawg

Dave Farrar

fishduck

HuntinDawg

fishduck

mikehmike

Hunt'EmUp

Karen Klotthor

Ron in Portland

jacduck

mapman

mwk56

paul young

paul young

HuntinDawg

Hunt'EmUp

HuntinDawg

Kyle Bertram

dr_dog_guy

P T Brown

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