Eugene,
One of the things I learned from watching/listening/learning,when I was across the water. .."If pressure caused it, then pressure will fix it"
Took me a while to appreciate that phrase , because I always avoided the things that caused it,so never really had to fix it .(that make sense ?)
The 'Fix' is always harder than the issue . It has many complexities ,How/where/when/who /what/how often etc,etc,etc
Robert: As a student of dogs and training I am sure you know what you saw this side of the Pond was but one visit to many different classrooms and teachers. One of your classrooms by one teacher, Rex Carr, said "the pressure of the Cure must exceed the pressure of the Cause" (not verbatim but more or less a Carr statement at one point earlier on).
This has been widely mis-interpreted and more so with today's training. Some think that if a Hi 3 on the e-collar caused the problem, then a Hi 6 is needed to fix it. That's been known to work where the low level was "nagging" and high level put the student back into school with a new attitude. But, we have learned, that pressure takes many forms and often Indirect is far more effective than Direct to solve problems. More importantly, pressure is widely miss-construed to mean physical pressure-ie Correction. Often, the biggest pressure is MENTAL!
Dogs like Steve's that are pushed are often reacting to such mental pressure. They are conflicted and become uncertain because of the mental pressure which is usually also accompanied with some physical pressure (as Steve indirectly might have applied!).
The solution is NOT just simple success as some have alluded to! That might help the dog forget for awhile but basically he/she has not learned to deal with the real world which is not just simple success.
My clue to Steve's problem was when he said someone ONCE put there hand down on his dog and the dog looked up to say What! So Steve NEVER puts his hand down! WOW WOW WOW!
First: One incident should never control your training! Second: The hand can be a HUGE tool- It is a confirmation "YES" you are looking correctly" YOU got it! I am going to send you! It can be a confidence builder. The hand down is an essential tool in training but my dogs can learn to go with and without eventually. Third: Never avoid an issue-hoping it will go away. If a dog is stick-shy-don't avoid the stick-fix it. If a dog is hand shy-don't avoid it-make the dog love it. If a dog can't find a tough bird-learn how to teach him to persist and hunt ( a big topic-using special dirt-cold drill techniques, perhaps?).
A very important and another related issue is HARDINESS and Steve's dog may be lacking here but of course I have never seen the dog and only a handful of training videos.
Dogs need to learn that things get tough and that they are still treated fairly but firmly. They need to learn to accept a level of mental and physical pressure and that it's OK and life goes on and "I can do it!" So the dog has to be put into a black and white situation but where it can still fail, accept pressure and then succeed! The dog needs to learn I can do this even when I am not sure!
Of course, there's lot more to de-popping and various drills possible. Pat Burns is going to present a Karl Gunzer technique soon on his Zoom podcasts!
I noticed Steve does not un-wind his dog on a de-popping cast so that is also important. Force back at a distant drill can be useful and not traumatic.
The point of all this is consider mental and physical pressure and don't avoid the issue but also don't consider more pressure the answer!
Summer Solstice Sermon regards!
