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#23 · (Edited)
P T Brown said:
With all due respect to the venerable 870, the guns of choice for training , trials, and tests should be break action (O/U S/S and singles). Not always possible, but certainly desired from a safety standpoint .(y)
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I wasnt gonna say anything.. This statement is such an old beat to death horse..

With a break action gun, the action is open when it is broke open

With a slide acction gun,, the action is open when the slide is back, boltout of battery..Very visible...

Both circumstances, the safety should be on too.. A requirement when using the gun at a HRC test...

Most good handlers announce to the judges after they shoot their marks ,and place gun back in rack,, "Action Open, Safety on"... You CAN be failed if action is closed and safey is in off position.. making yourself announce the condition of the gun, helps keep you from making a mistake..

The possibility of a "Triple" is a reason to carry a Pump or Autoloader gun... A double gun at a hunt test where triples are required by rule, would place an unresonable burden on a handler..
 
#25 ·
I can put 2 into any flier faster than anyone with an O/U with my 870. It provoked our left coast bird supplier to put away his break guns and play with pumps
 
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#26 · (Edited)
Happy Gilmore said:
I can put 2 into any flier faster than anyone with an O/U with my 870. It provoked our left coast bird supplier to put away his break guns and play with pumps
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Well of course!! But a hunt test isnt about a hunters "Trick" shooting skills.. a Hunnt test is about a dog retrieving birds,and by rule preferably triples... and the Hunter being safe with the gun during the process.. At an HRC test,, there are guns at the LINE, not at a flier station only... The hunter/handler is judged on their gun safety..

A gun with an action designed to hold more than one or two , (a gun holding the max of three regulated by federal law) a makes the most sense... The 870 is a very common gun that many are familiar with.. If you arent,, and you are going to run HRC tests,,you better be resposible,,and familiarise yourself with the gun you willbe required to use,,and most importantly,, SHOW you have some level of compentency with its safe use!!,, There isnt ,,nor should there be ,,ANY wiggle room about this..

Your Seasoned / fFnished dog doesnt deliver to hand,,, or You are unsafe with the gun,,, You will be dropped!!!

Not matter what action gun you carry,,if you have some sort of competency.. you can be safe with any one of them

An Open action is an open action..a safety has an "On" position despite the action..

""Action Open .safety on"",,,, and I will say,, BY RULE,, the safty cant come off, till just before the first shot.. Judges are instructed,to listen, or visibly look for when the handler takes the safety off the gun.. (Just before the shot ,,at the top of arc,gun must be shouldered)

As you are walking with the gun on a "walk-up" ..You had better of paid attention to how many to load,, the safety better be "On" while you are walking. ,,and you dont remove the safety (take it off) untill the walk up bird is presented,, and you are about to shoot it AT TOP OF ARC!!! The gun must always be pointed in a safe direction...

Hrc is a stickler about this... There isnt much leeway, ot forgiveness if you are unsafe with the gun.. You will be dropped if you are unsafe,,and dont strickly follow the rules..

People should be safe with any action of gun.. There is no gun safer than another.. they all demand respect and attention to safety..

Requiring handlers to hold rounds between their fingers,or in their mouth, because the gun is incapable of shooting the 3 birds required at a test makes no sense,, despite your skill of being able to do it.. Especially IF the main consideration is " A break Open gun is the most safe".. Stupidity at its finest..

An Open action,,is an open action.. a safety button has a specific "On" position.. The barrel should be pointed in a safe direction at ALL TIMES!!!. period.. it applies to ALL gun designs..

beatin the dead horse some more.. stupid conversation...
 
#27 ·
I will say, I am no angel..

Its happened a couple of times to me at a test, where the handler that ran after me, came up to me after he ran,, and said to me. "When I got to the bucket, and removed the gun from the rack after your run, I found the gun in rack with action closed safety off!"

I was careless,, Judge missed it,,, handler behind me didnt say anything...

I should have been dropped... Period..

Wouldnt matter if the gun was a break open or Pump..
 
#28 ·
Its also very obvious at some tests where fliers are involved, that there is a competion going on at the station as to who is the quickest/ best shot.. in those circumstances,,, the "FLYER" is anything but!... Its just another dead bird station..
The FLYER is supposed to fly a aways.. and who get TWO into a flyer quick? Isnt riding the bird a good distance, and having the skill to kill it right there wiith one shot the objective?

I think club accountants sitting in the gallery listening to 3 gunners at a flyer station rapid firing 2 shots each on a bird would cause some level of heartburn.. especially now that ammo is most difficult to find,, and costs an arm an a leg..

Kinda tuff on the dog to to retrieve a bird thats been turned inside out...

:) :) :)
 
#29 ·
To REALLY get off topic,,,, and get the Peeing contest rollin.. :)

A Winchester model 12 will "Slam fire'" A person who is familiar and has practiced,, can get off THREE (maybe 5) ACCURATE shots amazingly fast,,while that hotey toety English double is standin there empty after two quick misses.. jsy sayin..

Beware the person with 1 well used gun.. (i used the word person to be politically correct)
 
#30 ·
Certainly a lot of talk about a simple matter. Most break action firearms are safer because they are simpler to use and simpler to observe. Whether we would like to admit it or not, not all the people handling guns at an retriever events are overly experienced gun people. One look at a break action usually tells the story, action open,chambers clear. Repeaters, action open, chamber clear ?? how many in magazine ?? how do I load or unload it ??. The 870 is outstanding, but there are better alternatives for performance dog events
 
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#31 · (Edited)
What the he!! lets keep goin! :)

PT BROWN...You are a finished Judge in this example.. You require, in your test, for a dog and handler team to shoot a triple.. You hand the handler a O/U..

You said above...." Repeaters, action open,chamber clear? how many in magazine? how do I unload it?

Chamber clear? really? with the acction open chamber is clearly visible..
How many in magazine? really?? You work the slide, open the action, and any shellin magazine will have dropped out, and be sitting on the follower in plain site.. If no shell drops out,, noting in magazine..

If you go to the line, and judge has told you "Load three" You sit on yer custom bucket, load three.. You shoot three ducks at top of arc.. Last shot, you open the action back open,, no shell on follower, you can visibly see the chamber is empty.. You say to judge "action Open", as you put the safty on and tell him you did so,, and put UNLOADED gun in rack behind you.. with the ACTION OPEN SAFETY ON...

Each series of a HRC test...the judges will tell you how many to load at the line..Its never more than what you need to do the test.... You may be told to load three,,and PUT ONE IN YOUR POCKET for the diversion.. Gun can only hold three...

If the series is a double, with a diversion thrown on the return first bird down,,and judge has told you to load TWO, put diversion shellin pocket,,but ,,,IF,,, you load THREE... I wouldnt want to be in your shoes, when you put the gun in rack as your dog picks up the go bird,and you send for the memory,,and you have placed a loaded gun in rack with action closed,
Good by!!! your done!! And Judge is gonna give you a well desrved earfull..

Im sure from what you write you are only opining on Hunt tests where the LIVE gun is at a flyer station....
The poppers are behind hides on popper stands Popper guns are break open.. they only require 1 shot for the test..... shots all come from the field,, none from the line... Not all performance tests are run that way..

If you are only considering a flyer station,,, well I will sort of agree,, BUT! I have seen some pretty carless stuff done in a flyer stations, where the first shot kills the bird,,and then there are three double guns with actions closed that hold 5 more shells total!! I have watched barrels get swept across people in the station.. No situation,, no gun is fool proof!! The guy with the bugger hook has the resposibility..

The comment that a break open gun is safer,,is a dangerous statement..It breeds complacency.. a 26" barrelled double gun in a goose pit ,,in the wrong hands,,, is a nightmare.. A line of layout blinds with guns laying across laps, runs chills down my spine too,, unless I am familiar with who I am hunting with.. (I like hunting alone..)



Give me a specific example of a gun you have in mind, that will convienently hold three shells to shoot a triple mark.. .What gun is the "better alternative" to use in this performance situation? Never mind actual hunting..

Consider this... a double gun... you or someone els loads two.. The first shot is fired... all that it takes for the second shot to be fired, is, touch the trigger.... A Pump gun,, you have to make a considerable effot to work the action, to get another shell in that pump guns chamber, before it will fire again. The "PUMP" cocks the action, and chambers the next round... basically,,, handler reloads it each shot... A double gun is sitting with a shellin the other chamber with the gun cocked and all it takes to fire the round is pull the trigger.. Same as that autoloader everbody cringes over..

ACTION OPEN<<< SAFETY ON!!! Its that simple..

I just checked.....horse aint dead yet..
 
#32 ·
MooseGooser said:
Most good handlers announce to the judges after they shoot their marks ,and place gun back in rack,, "Action Open, Safety on"... You CAN be failed if action is closed and safey is in off position.. making yourself announce the condition of the gun, helps keep you from making a mistake..
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I don't believe this is true. I believe you, as a handler, can be disqualified from a stake for this, but the dog can continue to run, under a different handler. The handler can go to another stake, and handle other dogs, as long as they are not in the same stake, the same day, as where they were disqualified. At least that is how the HRC rules are read.
 
#33 ·
I guess I sold my old wingmaster too cheap then. I had a 1950 wingmaster 12ga, fixed full choke 28" barrel, in pretty good shape, taking room up in the safe, and never used. Was contemplating using it as my training gun as I have another, newer, 870 express that is my normal training gun. Decided to let go of the old 1950 as it did not have a rib on the barrel, and I am not as accurate with it as the express with a rib as a backup gun to my hunting gun. Sold for $275 to a guy who couldn't be happier with it.
 
#34 · (Edited)
JP Madison said:
I don't believe this is true. I believe you, as a handler, can be disqualified from a stake for this, but the dog can continue to run, under a different handler. The handler can go to another stake, and handle other dogs, as long as they are not in the same stake, the same day, as where they were disqualified. At least that is how the HRC rules are read.
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Rule book quote:

"Mishandling of firearms will result in immediate disqualification of BOTH the HANDLER and the hunting RETRIEVER..
A Disqualified handler's OTHER ENTERED DOGS may be handled by someone else...."

UKC/ HRC Rulebook for Hunting retriever tests. effective Jan 1th 2021.
Page 7 " Disqualifications / Disqualified for fighting, Hrc".. Policy for gun safety is within the paragraph section..
 
#36 ·
One year I let the HRC club use my 870
for a test. Before returning my gun the person in charge of guns asked me if I wanted my gun cleaned. I just laughed as I told him that wouldn’t be necessary.
 
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#37 ·
A "Gun", is a chunk of metal with some wood or polycarbonate attached. It is nether unsafe or safe. That quality is in the hands of the human holding it. I shoot often. I shoot at events my club hosts and for other clubs. All but one of the accidental shotgun discharges I have personally seen have been break action double barrel shotguns. The other lone exception was a semi. To make the blanket statement that the double is so much safer is incorrect. It helps promote the agenda of minimal capacity firearms. And should be countered with the truth, aggressively at every opportunity.
 
#38 ·
P T Brown said:
not all the people handling guns at an retriever events are overly experienced gun people.
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An oddly, those novices are often much safer in their handling of a gun than the grizzled 40 year shooter. Complacent old farts are some of the most dangerous. You wouldn't think so. But again, just what I have personally observed.
 
#39 · (Edited)
JP Madison said:
My apologies, during our Judges/Handler seminar this year it was described differently by the region rep.
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No apology necessary! It's all good... :)

There are very few things that get you automatically dropped.. HRC is proud of its use of the gun at the line.. They use an Iconic common hunting gun familiar to many..(not all of course)

The gun at the line,simulating a real hunt ,,sets HRC apart from other test venues. It makes the tests really fun..
They are serious though about showing safe gun handling.
At every test,, at every handlers meeting, there will be a speech that describes the gun. Where the safty is ,How the action opens. They define an" action open "condition. they define a "closed action." They visibly show ypu how tthey want to see the gun in the rack when not in use.. They are VERY clear. If regs are not followed you will be dropped. They do also explain conditions that warrent a "Warning",, first time warning ,,but after that,, you are gone.. A gun placed in a rack with the action closed,,and safty OFF is gonna end your day,, period.. All this demonstration is REQUIRED of judges.,,at EVERY test... There should not be any confusion or debate.. HRC is VERY clear about it..

Also, before each SERIES, they will give a hunt scenario.. They can be entertaining when the judges use some creativity... They will explain to you when you come to the line, how many shells to load for the test. If a diversion bird is part of the test, they will instruct you to put that diversion shell in your pocket..annnnd WHEN TO RELOAD THE GUN..

At both instances,, Handlers meeting,,and Hunt senario,,, They ask if there ae any questions.. Dont be shy!! There are no silly questions with regards to the gun ,,and the mechanics of test..

I think HRC choosing the 870, shows how Iconic that simple gun is.. Its basically bullet proof, It is a real shame, its gone away. It is a worse shame,, Remington allowed very poor QC sds with its manufaxturing in later years.. If Remington doesnt take advantage of this new second chance,, we will all loose with the loss of another great gunmaker..

Considering current environments in todays times,, It will be a shame if HRC , AKC,,or aany of the dog games get "Cancelled".. The loss of that 870, and HRC,, IMHO,, particuarly so..

Go run HRC tests!! at the very LEAST,,you will have fun!!..
 
#40 ·
In the years when our club ran HRC tests we used Winchester pumps. I forget the model number; the club bought many used ones cheap. They aren't near the gun that the 870 Wingmaster is, but certainly were sufficient to fire blanks.

Back then we also used those MONSTER Winchester blanks. I think they are louder than 3 inch live rounds; hard on everyones ears. The move to primer loads was a good one IMHO.

There is no doubt that handling a gun at the line adds an element of difficulty to the tests. I like that, but am not a proponent of the "swing to the gun" stuff; prefer attention-getting sounds. HRC tests are fun despite that. I got 5 HRCH's. I may run some again when COVID calms down. There aren't many NAHRA tests around and AKC's fill up.
 
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