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K G

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
All-age stake, three bird drop, flyer last.....dog is released and goes to the area of the fall, puts up an extended hunt, can't come up with the bird....flyer gunners call judges on radio and say the flyer duck has walked out of the area and can no longer be retrieved...judges call no-bird, tell handler to bring dog in and run later.....

...NOW....here's the question......;-)

Handler whistles and calls dog in....dog stays in area of fall to hunt.....does NOT respond to whistles and calls from handler....handler eventually has to go get the dog out of the field.....

Should the dog be dropped for not responding to the handler, or did ALL judgment stop at "no bird?"

I'll reveal "the call" after some responses......

kg
 
#2 ·
K G said:
All-age stake, three bird drop, flyer last.....dog is released and goes to the area of the fall, puts up an extended hunt, can't come up with the bird....flyer gunners call judges on radio and say the flyer duck has walked out of the area and can no longer be retrieved...judges call no-bird, tell handler to bring dog in and run later.....

...NOW....here's the question......;-)

Handler whistles and calls dog in....dog stays in area of fall to hunt.....does NOT respond to whistles and calls from handler....handler eventually has to go get the dog out of the field.....

Should the dog be dropped for not responding to the handler, or did ALL judgment stop at "no bird?"

I'll reveal "the call" after some responses......

kg
Click to expand...
The dog should be dropped. From the Field Trial rulebook:

"Dogs should be considered under judgment from the time they are called to come to the line until they have left the line and are back of all the Judges and on leash."

and, later

"When the handler of a dog under judgment is ordered by the Judges for any reason to pick up his dog, he is under judgment until he is back of all the Judges with his dog on leash, and all provisions of this section shall apply until that time."
 
#7 ·
He can be dropped for not responding to the handler. Even if he wasn't under judgement, he could still exhibit a serious fault, as in #14 of serious faults:

"Breaking for a fall for a dog under judgement by a dog still in the stake but not on line under judgement [...]"

This is paraphrased again in the Standard Procedure. "When a dog that is still in a stake, but not on line under judgment, breaks for a fall for a dog under judgment, [...] that dog shall be eliminated from the stake."

But in reality, he's still under judgment. The next paragraph of the Standard Procedure says, "Dogs should be considered under judgment from the time they are called to come to the line until they have left the line and are back of all the Judges and on leash."

And Chapter 14 says "When the handler of a dog under judgment is ordered by the Judges for any reason to pick up his dog, he is under judgment until he is back of all the Judges with his dog on leash, and all provisions of this section shall apply until that time."

Kevin
 
#10 ·
(4) Each Judge should be at liberty to say “NO,’’ and
independently, if, in his opinion, any “fall’’ is such, or
any situation develops that makes for a relatively unfair
test for the dog under judgment.
Judges should watch the dog being tested, and try to
determine whether he apparently saw and marked each
“fall.’’ It is proper and right to give him another set of
birds, if he is unable to see the birds and mark the
“falls’’ through no fault of his own, but due to poor
flight of the bird, unusual light conditions, striking
changes in the background, or any other occurrence
which makes for decidedly different conditions from
those under which previously competing dogs had
been tested in that series. On the other hand, the dog
should not be given a new set of birds when failure to
mark was of his own doing — either through lack of
attention, or because his attention was “frozen’’ on
another set of Guns or a previous “fall.’’



(7) Running crippled birds or “runners’’ are always a
problem; they create a lack of uniformity in the “falls.’’
Dogs should be able to follow and “find’’ a “runner,’’ but
until a method has been devised whereby all dogs will
be tested equally on “runners,’’ an occasional “runner’’
can create a gross inequality in the test. Judges may
agree that they will treat a “runner’’ as a “break of the
game’’ and expect that a dog finds the birds shot for
him. Or they may agree that a dog is to be picked up as
soon as it is recognized that a bird is a “runner,’’ even
though he may have already retrieved the other bird or
birds in that particular test, and be tested again on a
new set of birds; or they may agree to extend the
opportunity to get a new set of birds only to dogs
whose work up to the time of reaching the “original
fall’’ of the running bird justifies such consideration.
In any case, the Judges should decide in advance
how they will deal with the problem of “runners,’’
should it arise



This is from the FT guide/supliment. I don't see where it says the dog is no longer under judgment, only that the purpose of the no bird is make sure everyone has the same opportunity to mark the birds. In my mind if the dog won't respond to the whistle and come back, then sorry....

/Paul
 
#11 ·
Dog is done for the day.
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
Very impressive discussion, folks....supported by the rules, not emotions. Outstanding!

Wanna know what happened?????????????????????? :)
























































The dog got a rerun, finished the trial, and won the stake.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions regards,

kg
 
#17 ·
I can actually see this happening with my dog in the future. As a novice I have tried to pick up on "things that work". One of which is I have never ever recalled my dog on a mark. He will hunt till hell freezes over. He does stop to the whistle on all of our handling drills. So what I want to know, is there a point where I should train him to stop on a marked bird? Please dont laugh at me, it just never occurred to me that this situation might happen.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
I think you have to train for the "pick up," if for no other reason, the safety of the dog. That said, I would think you'd do it through obedience training and then correction when training. Rather than handling on a mark, if the situation warrants it, call the dog in and repeat the mark. Chances are you're not going to reward the dog with a retrieve if it doesn't take the correction, right?

Imagine harsh hunting conditions with cold water temperatures and a dog that won't give up the hunt by command.....could end in tragedy.

kg....and I wonder where lablove's posts went????
 
#19 ·
Thanks KG, there is some gold in your reply. I will try this one day when dog has a big hunt, just to see if he will come in, and if not correct. Sorry for the diversion!
 
#20 ·
Wow. Let me repeat that ....... wow.

/Paul

ps. Carol, the procedure for handling this in training would be to blow a sit whistle, big sit whistle if necessary and make the dog stop and look at you. If he doesn't then you have a clear cut infraction of the most basic command to correct for. Once the dog is sat, let him sit there and calm himself for a second and then a very deliberate come in whistle.
 
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Patrick Johndrow
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