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#21 ·
greg magee said:
I can not see where this situation is such a big deal..
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It is a big deal when your dog fails for reasons other than, they can't mark. When it happened to Jones, we were upset. Had the guns for the double ( which included a flyer ) been hidden when the single was shot, no way, no how he doesn't go. Most derby dogs do triples, he wanted all the birds, especially the quacking one. If I were judging, I would feel really badly about a dog failing in this manner. Set up 2 series at once by all means, but they should not interfere with one another. If it happens in training, you can start over, at a trial, it is bye, bye.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
One must keep in mind that these are two seperate tests. If you were running the AM would you want the white coats from the derby in the background, foreground or 90-180 off line? Are our AM dogs not trained on ABC drills and such? I believe that it seems simple to you and I. How do you explain that to the handler that has a dog switch and go back to a previous gun station? How do you explain that to a handler that gets up to the line and has a hard time getting his dog to look out at the long station on the double, dog looks at the short bird, you push to long bird but the dog swings to the previously shot single, etc, etc, etc.

We all know how difficult it can be to get a young dog to look at a long punch bird. And isn't this what the dog is seeing (or not seeing in this case).

To clarify I am not complaining about the judges. The first time I saw this senerio my dog nailed all three birds. One of only 5 dogs that did, in a 30 dog derby. The second time I saw it I didn't have a dog running.
 
#23 ·
I don't have any problem knocking out two series in one setup (helps cut down on the number of trips the pros have to make from the Open). I do have a problem with exposing guns to the dog that are not part of the series being run.

In the setup described, while running the dog on the single, why not hide the stations that will be throwing the double? Conversely, when the dog is doing the double, why not hide the single?

I don't understand why anyone would want to do otherwise.
 
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#24 · (Edited)
jeff t. said:
I don't have any problem knocking out two series in one setup (helps cut down on the number of trips the pros have to make from the Open). I do have a problem with exposing guns to the dog that are not part of the series being run.

In the setup described, while running the dog on the single, why not hide the stations that will be throwing the double? Conversely, when the dog is doing the double, why not hide the single?

I don't understand why anyone would want to do otherwise.
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Good post, cuts right to the heart of it, why not hide the guns, what possible reason is there not to? Threads like this are good, many inexperienced people judge derby's, they didn't intend for dogs to no-go, go back to old falls, not see the long bird. yada, they just haven't thought it through.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
cakaiser said:
Good post, cuts right to the heart of it, why not hide the guns, what possible reason is there not to? Threads like this are good, many inexperienced people judge derby's, they didn't intend for dogs to no-go, go back to old falls, not see the long bird. yada, they just haven't thought it through.
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Exactly what I was thinking!
 
#26 ·
Originally Posted by greg magee
"I can not see where this situation is such a big deal.."

Well I am judging this weekend at Lincoln Trail. If you would like to run test dog, with a derby dog, I will be happy to set up this test.

Oh yeah, flyer will be the first station, or the second station or the third station that your dog wonders what is it doing there.

My only request is that if your dog has any confusion as a result of me being too lazy to put up a holding blind, you get to walk out there and set it up.

:rolleyes:

I also need to admit that I have made a few mistakes in judging Derbies. Fortunately, Kippy Kemp has reminded me about it for years.
 
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#28 ·
Ran a Derby at Del Bay once where there was a double double in the first series with all four gun stations out. They were spread apart but wow, I think 3/4 of the field didn't make it to the 2nd series..

Lee Nelson
Firemarks Prayer of Jabez***
 
#29 ·
I've done a double double several times for the 1st and 2nd series of a derby. Considering the possibility of a couple hour wait for a pro truck to show up, i'm a fan of getting two done at once.

Technically, since its not a part of THAT series, a holding blind - or just a gunner w/white coat - could probably be argued as a fake gun station, which would make it illegal.

This entire sport is founded on subjectivity and ethics, while assuming common sense on the part of those with jurisdiction at any given time. While the common sense part may not always stand true, you really need it when doing this type of setup.

I've done it at 180 degrees, and i've done it at 90 degrees, but never tight and never when a non-participating gun station could be seen in the same picture. THANKFULLY, i don't think it has ever been a problem. I've seen them done tight, and i don't think it was a problem then either. But it is risky.

SM
 
#30 ·
Gawthorpe said:
Originally Posted by greg magee
"I can not see where this situation is such a big deal.."

Well I am judging this weekend at Lincoln Trail. If you would like to run test dog, with a derby dog, I will be happy to set up this test.

Oh yeah, flyer will be the first station, or the second station or the third station that your dog wonders what is it doing there.

My only request is that if your dog has any confusion as a result of me being too lazy to put up a holding blind, you get to walk out there and set it up.

:rolleyes:

I also need to admit that I have made a few mistakes in judging Derbies. Fortunately, Kippy Kemp has reminded me about it for years.
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Well Gawthorpe, I don't have a derby dog. she's a little young yet. And all I can say is I trial the way I train. And I feel a well trained derby dog should have no problem with this kind of set up. And if I went out on your set up I would turn and thank you for donating your time for the weekend and to enjoy the rest of the day. Like I said, it's not a big deal to me.
And I'm not apposed to shooting a flyer as a first bird down on a derby double and if it's a big trial and I only have a day and 1/2 to get it done, you can almost expect it from me.
 
#31 ·
greg magee said:
I think the term dry guns refers to gun stations where no bird will be forthcoming and is put there to purposely mislead the dog. I don't think it is applicable to the scenario as stated. The reference to dry guns is in the standard trial procedure section and would be applicable to all stakes not just the derby. So that being the case, would that make a delayed triple or quad illegal as well.
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In the interest of time management,I've done it when judging a Derby ...... but with holding blinds.

In the scnerio as stated "All three guns are visable from the line ".
Without the holding blinds , unless it is some version of a triple, it a dry gun station and as such is illegal, in my view....in a Derby
A dry gun station would be any visible station where a bird is not forthcoming in that series--Not so with a delayed mark.
Therefore, strange as it seams,:rolleyes: the only way for it to be legal in a Derby would be to throw it as a delayed "triple",:p and count it as one series;-)

If you plan on getting many Derby placements your dog had better be ready to do them


john
 
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Discussion starter · #32 ·
So how do you hide the guns that are not in that "series". It is my understanding that you cannot have holding blinds in the field because this adds confusion (BTW if the powers that be believe holding blinds add confusion I would have to believe that a person in a white coat would do the same).

If holding blinds are in fact "not allowed" then it is my belief that the only way to run these test would be to have two seperate lines. One running "north" and the other running "south". IMO it is impossible to not have the non-participating gunner(s) "in the picture" with a single line.
 
#33 ·
sheriff said:
So how do you hide the guns that are not in that "series". It is my understanding that you cannot have holding blinds in the field because this adds confusion (BTW if the powers that be believe holding blinds add confusion I would have to believe that a person in a white coat would do the same).

If holding blinds are in fact "not allowed" then it is my belief that the only way to run these test would be to have two seperate lines. One running "north" and the other running "south". IMO it is impossible to not have the non-participating gunner(s) "in the picture" with a single line.
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Terrain and cover would play a large part in how the holding blinds/layout blinds are concealed and in test construction.

Creativity (and fairness) is encouraged regards,

kg
 
#34 ·
Greg:
On a serious note. I do wish you and your young dog well. It is my hope that any judges you run under have the consideration to set up well designed tests that do not allow any confusion to the dog.

In addition, when you judge I am certain that you will demand from yourself the same consideration that others have hopefully given to you.

Here is to many blue ribbons.

Erik
 
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#35 ·
There is a difference between


What can be done

and

What should be done

That is why we refer to

Good judging

and

Good judgment
 
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#36 ·
Gawthorpe said:
Greg:
On a serious note. I do wish you and your young dog well. It is my hope that any judges you run under have the consideration to set up well designed tests that do not allow any confusion to the dog.

In addition, when you judge I am certain that you will demand from yourself the same consideration that others have hopefully given to you.

Here is to many blue ribbons.

Erik
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Erik, I've lost count over the years and maybe Marvin can help me out with the number of Minor stakes and All Age stakes I've judged. My objective all along has been to give the dog the benifit of the doubt each and every time.
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thought my test were anything but straight forward. (Except maybe Fallon, But he complains about everything:p) And I do wish I was given the same consideration that I have given others. Although that hasn't always been the case. But thats why they put the names on the front of the premium. Enjoy your weekend Judging, Hope you have nice weather and good dog work. Greg
 
#37 ·
I did two doubles last spring in a derby. Had holding blinds for 3 dead stations, and the 1st series flyer was out of sight when running the 2nd series. It seemed the sensible thing to do. I certainly didn't want to promote head swinging or anything else bad.
 
#38 ·
My understanding is that "Series" are seperated by call backs. A series may consist of multiple tests, for example blinds and marks are often run in the same series, or land blind and water blind run in the same series. Many people incorrectly refer to each test as a series. The rules require a rotation for each "series" of an all-age stake. If each "test" were a "series", combination tests would be impossible.

The rule book states:
No Dry Guns should be stationed in the field and visible to the dog while a marking test is run, or while the marking portion of a combination mark / blind test is run.
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My understanding is that "dry guns" are gun stations that shoot but don't throw a bird. They are common in blind retrieves and in hunt tests where the bird is thrown from one station and shot from another. It was not intended to prohibit delayed marking tests.

The rule book also states:
No blinds should be placed in the field in a marking test except in accordance with the provisions set forth in this paragraph or for the purpose of protecting the running dogs from injury by unseen hazards.
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This is the infamous "decoy blind" rule. It was initiated after a "decoy" blind was used in the field of a national a couple years ago. Everyone knows the intent of this rule as it is relatively new. Yet, how long will it be before the intent of the rule will be forgotten and someone will start to argue the litteral interpretation.
 
#39 ·
Goldenboy said:
I see it as more of a head swinging problem distracting the dog from clearly focusing on the marks under judgement.

From the rule book, "No Dry Guns should be stationed in the field and visible to the dog while a marking test is run, or while the marking portion of a combination mark / blind test is run."
Click to expand...

Just for clarification purposes I contacted Jerry Mann and asked him to define the above statement. This was his response.

Mr. Magee,
These are gunning stations that are placed in the field to distract a dogs’ attention. They may or may not fire a shot (for blind retrieves) but they do not throw a bird.

I hope this helps with your question.
Thanks,
Jerry D. Mann

So the answer to the original poster is, yes it is legal.
 
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