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Peggy Snyder

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
If you had a five year old dog that has run 15 Master tests and only passed 3 would you consider ( 6 senior tests and only passed 3) would you change trainers-change dogs-change owners :D, or just be thankful you can enjoy the out of doors with your dog?
 
#6 ·
I would first have a heart to heart with the trainer and find out the root cause of the problem,is it a poor program,is the dog just not trainable to this level? is it a health issue (poor eyes,poor hearing) have someone else who knows dogs evaluate it for you another pro or a good trainer that knows what he/she is looking at,in order to be fair to the dog and the trainer you need to figure out whats going on,you say the gallery says same reason,what is that reason? if it's just a training issue then i would say either the dog is over his head or the pro is,if it's health related,then no ones at fault,but at some point you need to isolate the issue or your getting poor while the pro is lining his pockets,could be many things happening all at once,dig a little deeper and go from there.

Dave
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Sorry last night I pushed the wrong key and computer died......the problems are when casting the dog will refuse a cast...to much handling for master level...hunt to big (range very wide). We have had a health check on the dog and he passed..as far as trainability the dog seems to be smart enough to get it but when he goes to tests he fails. Gallery comments are OH NO he always lets him get away with that or he's sending him wrong again. Seems to be a problem that is common with trainer--there are 5 dogs he is running and running and running and they are all older dogs--we see 1-11/2 olds doing better. Just trying to get a handle on what should be expected with a dog who has great drive not pass year after year--the trainer uses the dog to guide with in hunting season but pulls him from that in March to resume hunt test training. Could that be part of it...
 
#8 ·
peggy i know myself and a lot of other people get into hunting mode and sometimes slack on our dogs.. this last year was the 1st year i ran him with a collar, and didn't let him slide with anything. i would even not shoot to watch him from time to time. if he broke, he got burnt.. So what I'm saying is hunting can mess some dogs up, and some dogs know the difference.

On another notw sounds like your trainer may be one of thoseguys who let's things slide over and over and he's test smart or just not even trained well. I bet with some repeated handling drills even you could make that dog a master dog! Lots of smart people on here that you could talk to, or even find a different trainer who will work with you! How cool would that be to come run your dog in his area and PASS!!! Good luck with your dog.
 
#11 ·
R Little said:
I would have DEEP 6'D this trainer anout 10 FAILED MASTERS AGO!!!
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It may or may not be the trainer I suppose but I would be looking for another well regarded, proven trainer with good references from satisfied clients and get my dog with him/her pronto.

Seems to me you would find out soon enough whether it's your dog that doesn't have what it takes, or your current trainer.
 
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#12 ·
Peggy, I have a young dog with a trainer and have tried to communicate what I want the goals of that dog to be with him at all times. This also includes timelines and economics. My descisions are based on trust in my trainer but also in what I feel is adequate and acceptable dog work. I want to see progress! Might not be passes or placements, but did the dog do the work? Finish all series? Is he improving? Are trouble or weak areas being addressed in training?
Sounds like your dog is struggling at this level and the issues are on-going. Definitely time to put the trainer on the spot! Ask what the problem is, and how it's going to be over come? Discuss the limit of time or investment you're willing to continue with if better results aren't achieved. Tell, your trainer you don't want the dog entered until the problems have been corrected. Of course, this last one in my opinion should have been already decided by a good trainer!
If your dog only needs a couple more senior passes then why not run him yourself and get the experience of working as a team. Then move back up together!
I agree that an evaluation by another very reputable and experienced trainer would probably give you the answers you're looking for. After 15 tests your money may be better spent elsewhere.
 
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#13 ·
Peggy Snyder said:
Sorry last night I pushed the wrong key and computer died......the problems are when casting the dog will refuse a cast...to much handling for master level...hunt to big (range very wide). We have had a health check on the dog and he passed..as far as trainability the dog seems to be smart enough to get it but when he goes to tests he fails. Gallery comments are OH NO he always lets him get away with that or he's sending him wrong again. Seems to be a problem that is common with trainer--there are 5 dogs he is running and running and running and they are all older dogs--we see 1-11/2 olds doing better. Just trying to get a handle on what should be expected with a dog who has great drive not pass year after year--the trainer uses the dog to guide with in hunting season but pulls him from that in March to resume hunt test training. Could that be part of it...
Click to expand...
It sounds like there were things glossed over in transition. I can say that because I did the same thing with one of my dogs. Got to the senior level and went 1 for 2 and realized I had holes in my training. I had a lot of "ping pong" blinds, water blinds were a joke, but the pup could mark! The only reason we got the one pass was for some reason unknown to me he decided to line the blinds that day. I went home and took a year off testing and looked hard at "my" training program and found it to be......well lets just say less than desired. I got involved with other people and also purchased Evan Grams program. It was then I was able to figure out were the holes were. It did not take long to go back through things and he just passed a double senior in SC this past weekend. Some folks feel that master is just one more bird from senior, that is true if you have a ROCK SOLID senior. IMO your pup should not have been running master until senior was cleaned up. He is probly' getting test wise at this point. I would take some time off and evaluate the trainer and the program he has been on. Also some times the guided hunts the dog is meerly there for clean-up, they are not held to a standard in their marking (alowed to have big hunts) usually not having a clear picture of the birds going down, this may be why his marking is deteriating. JMHO
 
#15 ·
"Seems to be a problem that is common with trainer--there are 5 dogs he is running and running and running and they are all older dogs--we see 1-11/2 olds doing better."

Don't need to be a MENTAL HEAVYWEIGHT to figure this one out.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Thanks for all the replys--I think the trainer just doesn't know how to take the dog to the next step--calls himself a pro but has not taken all the classes. Now is the question to start on another dog for hunt test and let this one just hunt--or try to see if someone can fix him...we'll need to get another pro's opinion.
 
#17 ·
Peggy Snyder said:
Thanks for all the replys--I think the trainer just doesn't know how to take the dog to the next step--calls himself a pro but has not taken all the classes. Now is the question to start on another dog for hunt test and let this one just hunt--or try to see if someone can fix him...we'll need to get another pro's opinion.
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i just started training my 4 year old.. IMO if the dog still loves to train, there is no reason to "need" to start over.. If it were field trials then maybe.. but hunt tests are a bit different.. Doesn't sound like this dog is going to make or break your life, keep running him and when he gets that MH it'll feel good.. (never been to the MH level, but i can imagine!)
 
#18 ·
Peggy Snyder said:
Thanks for all the replys--I think the trainer just doesn't know how to take the dog to the next step--calls himself a pro but has not taken all the classes. Now is the question to start on another dog for hunt test and let this one just hunt--or try to see if someone can fix him...we'll need to get another pro's opinion.
Click to expand...
Before I thought about starting over with a new dog, I think I would find a local pro who runs AKC hunt tests and who has had A LOT of success at the Master level. A guy (or gal) who has titled lots of Master dogs and who has qualified dogs for the Master National this year under the new rules. Then I would see about going to train with him/her. You may have to pay a small fee to do so or it may be free if the pro is making an attempt to evaluate the dog for training. Let the pro see the behavior you are talking about as well as the rest of the dog's performance and let the pro tell you what he/she thinks about getting it corrected in a reasonable amount of time and whether this dog has Master level talent or not. I think it would be well worth giving that a try before you give up on this dog, especially given what you have already invested.

Also, if you have any video of the dog failing those Master tests, I would bring that in case the pro wants to view a few of those to get a better idea of the problem.

Good luck.
 
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#19 ·
The first thing is quit running tests. A lot of people run way too many tests and don't train enough. This dog obviously has holes in his training program. Whether it be with this trainer or a new trainer, back up and find the holes and fill them in. Running a dog in too many tests when the dog is not prepared does way more harm than good.
 
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#20 ·
I don't think 15 Master tests with a five year old is too many tests. I agree that I would stop testing until the training is more complete.

I would also maybe have a talk with the pro. Some are not worth talking to and if this is the case, I don't think they are usually worth having a dog with.

I think having the dog evaluated by another good pro is your best bet. If there are other pros at the HT that have seen this dog multiple times you could speak with them. Ultimately you will probably need to take your dog to them and have the dog evaluated which may take up to a month.

The biggest puzzle to me is why the pro is having better success with younger dogs? If he didn't "break" something with the older dogs, then the only difference that makes sense is that the younger dogs are better. I doubt this is the case to such a large degree.

Master tests should have a better success rate than this with a pro trained/handled dog that is this age.


John
 
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