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The biggest puzzle to me is why the pro is having better success with younger dogs? If he didn't "break" something with the older dogs, then the only difference that makes sense is that the younger dogs are better. I doubt this is the case to such a large degree.
I interpreted her comment about 1 1/2 year old dogs doing better as meaning young dogs from other trainers are out performing the older (not old) dogs on this pro's truck who are struggling.
 
I have a couple clients who give me their hunting dogs in the off season to train and keep in shape and run a few tests. They are commercial guides and don't really care about manners, straight lines, cast refusals etc.
Very hard to get these dogs back in the training mode and discipline after a season of retrieves that are "hurry up and get em so we can get some more" type retrieves.
If you want a hunting dog, it sounds like you have one.
If you want a test dog, get one and do not let it hunt till titled.

JMHO
 
Thanks for all the replys--I think the trainer just doesn't know how to take the dog to the next step--calls himself a pro but has not taken all the classes. Now is the question to start on another dog for hunt test and let this one just hunt--or try to see if someone can fix him...we'll need to get another pro's opinion.
You are probably on to something there, although I don't think it has much to do with taking "all the classes." As I've attended quite a few AKC tests this spring for the first time in about 18 months, I've noticed several pros that I used to see and speak to that just haven't been around...guys with big fancy trucks/trailers who you just couldn't miss. One of them I knew what the situation was, but I asked my pro about probably 4 different ones that I am not seeing any more and for all but 1, my pro answered that the person had quit because "he just couldn't make a Master dog." Some guys can do it and some can't. You need a guy or gal who has proven that they can do it with regularity.

My pro took my dog who had never been pro trained and who basically hadn't been trained at all in 9-10 months at the beginning of February. The dog had been hunting regularly, but only 3-4 days of training since the previous April. When I had stopped training him in April (due to family stuff) he was somewhere in between Seasoned and Senior, having his HR and JH titles, but never having run a Senior or Finished test. The dog was about 2 1/2 months shy of his 3rd birthday and doesn't have the kind of pedigree that most on here would look for in a hunt test pup. After one month of pro training, Boomer ran and passed his first Senior test. By the end of the second month he had run and passed 4 Senior tests and earned his SH. By the end of the third month he had run and passed 2 finished tests and a Master test. He has yet to fail a test. All of this was still with me as his handler, so he didn't have the full benefit of the pro (he did coach me on handling in advance of most of the series) and I definitely made a few handling mistakes that could have cost us. During this time, I have witnessed that my pro has a very high success rate for the dogs on his truck (most are in Master). Without researching it, I would say that his Master pass rate is probably in excess of 75%. I will admit that some are already Master dogs who he is just qualifying for this year's Master National, but it is still impressive and he was likely the one who got them their Master titles in the first place. Now almost all of his Master level dogs are qualified for this year's Master National (some are new to his truck and/or have just become Master hunters). For most of those, that meant that they went 5 for 7 in Master tests at some point since last August. Do you see your pro going 5 for 7 with ANY of the dogs on his truck? It doesn't sound like it.

I'm not telling you this stuff to brag because I've mostly just paid the bills, but this is the kind of success you need to look for in a pro. Then if that pro can't get it done with your dog, you'll know it is probably the dog...but that kind of pro will probably have told you what the deal is before then.

It sounds like you and/or your pro are hoping to get the Master title by sheer number of attempts. I think you need another plan.

I would bring my dog home and start researching proven AKC Master level pros right now.

Good luck to you and your dog.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
My comment about the younger dogs refer to "other dogs" trained by ametuer or pro that are Master titled by 1 yr to 1 1/2 yrs. To be honest I have seen alot of ametuers who have produced above average Master and Grand Master dogs. This pro has never titled a Master dog..you always need to have the first but this particular dog has been with the "pro" since he was a pup, he has an above average pedigree, his drive is excellent and I believe his trainability is above average. I think the pro is not real sure how to get the dogs titled with a Master title so he is trying different things blindly only occasionally training with other pros to learn. He has titled Senior dogs but not easily. At times it seems he struggles with Junior dogs. He makes an excellent gun dog trainer. Wanting him to succeed I think the dog was sacrificed as an experiment but I do not think he's a wash out. I think with a properly skilled pro he would excell. That's hopefully the direction he's going to be going. The pro is one with the big truck and dog trailer--dresses great and is a GOOD talker and convinces you that he's the best one to have your dog with -- it was always something wrong with the test--judges--conditions--or maybe you spoiled your dog when he was home answers. As was stated it does not take a mental giant to figure out something was going wrong. Good lesson learned. I do not think the dog is a total loss and I do think with a season of training and a good pro he could be salvaged. AND he is an excellent hunter. Am looking forward to seeing him change and am going to start on a pup with the new found knowledge. Thanks for the encouragement and advise.
 
I don't think 15 Master tests with a five
year old is too many tests. John
If the dog has run 15 MH Tests and only passed 3, he is running too many tests, and is obviously not prepared for the work in the test. He should be training more and testing less. If the problem is that the trainer doesn't have the ability to train the dog for MH Tests, then a new trainer might be in order. But you can be sure that a reputable trainer is not going to go right out and run a bunch of MH Tests until he has a chance to train the dog to that level.
 
Doesn't sound like this "Pro" has much of a pedigree.

the trainer uses the dog to guide with in hunting season...
And you're paying him for this? (I hope not)

Bravo to you for hanging in there with your dog. Do yourself a favor, do some serious research, and hook up with a qualified pro. Then enjoy watching your dog's potential reveal itself.

This Bozo is taking you to the cleaners.

Mark

(Sent you a pm.)
 
Depends on what YOU want for this dog.If you want to title this dog in master, I would definitely stop testing this dog until he CAN do the work. 3 for 15- he is not ready. I would definitely look for another pro(If he is lacking in success with other dogs I would say he is out of his league,) doesn't sound like the one you have now is anything more than a money pit. At 5 years old it's a toss up to put more money into this dog for testing,you could certainly stop testing and train/maintain him yourself and hunt him and I'm sure he would be just as happy doing that too. If you have your heart set on playing and being successful in the dog games you can look for a new pup while you are hunting the 5year old. All depends on your desires. Jim
 
If the dog has run 15 MH Tests and only passed 3, he is running too many tests, and is obviously not prepared for the work in the test. He should be training more and testing less. If the problem is that the trainer doesn't have the ability to train the dog for MH Tests, then a new trainer might be in order. But you can be sure that a reputable trainer is not going to go right out and run a bunch of MH Tests until he has a chance to train the dog to that level.
Steve, I agree with everyhting you said except the first half of the first sentence. Most 5 year old pro trained dogs have run lots more than 15 tests. I guess it depends on when he started running Masters? I agree that he should not run more until he is trained better and/or handled better.


John
 
If the dog has run 15 MH Tests and only passed 3, he is running too many tests, and is obviously not prepared for the work in the test. He should be training more and testing less. If the problem is that the trainer doesn't have the ability to train the dog for MH Tests, then a new trainer might be in order. But you can be sure that a reputable trainer is not going to go right out and run a bunch of MH Tests until he has a chance to train the dog to that level.
Might only be running 5 Master tests per season. Might have run his first Master at age 3.

I do think a change is in order. Trainer, not dog. If she is in the Minnesota/Wisconsin area I woud suggest Tim Springer. He has a way of finding and fixing problems. Very nice guy also.
 
Peggy,you say this guy makes an excellent gun dog trainer,i will have to take exception to that,if he can't train a SH,then why would he make an excellent gundog trainer,my bread and butter is gundogs and i train every dog as if they were to go on to become the next NFC,I guess some guys think of 'just a gun dog' as a out of control just go get 'em kinda dog,some pro's who only turn out gun dogs train to a high standard even if they know the dog will never compete,my take is if this guy struggles to title JH,SH and god forbid a MH dog,then he has no business training any working dog,whether a dog goes on to achieve titles or ribbons or just scoops ducks/geese,he /she still has to be trained from the ground up,after all sit means sit to ant level of dog.

Good luck on finding someone competent to train/handle your dog

Dave
 
I would pull him from the trainer, continue the training with a training group, keep entering him in Masters until he got his MH and then retire him just like I did with Bodacious XIX MH. However, the trainer I had was great with Bo but I only had Bo with the trainer through transition period which was about 6 months of training. I still trained Bo after that and he had a heart of gold, was a good hunting companion. I was even dumb enough to run him in a few field trials. I think he even got to do a water blind once in the Qualifying.
 
It sounds to me the trainer has low standards and then at trials the dog takes advantage because of that. Pull the dog and demand higher standards. Sit means sit. Does the guy cast fast? Slow down your casting and make the dog sit until you handle him. Count to 8 before you cast. Don't even think about entering the dog until the dog is under control and I bet you can do this with a good training group. Watch a pro and see how the rest of the truck does. Like someone said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.
 
My comment about the younger dogs refer to "other dogs" trained by ametuer or pro that are Master titled by 1 yr to 1 1/2 yrs. To be honest I have seen alot of ametuers who have produced above average Master and Grand Master dogs. This pro has never titled a Master dog..you always need to have the first but this particular dog has been with the "pro" since he was a pup, he has an above average pedigree, his drive is excellent and I believe his trainability is above average. I think the pro is not real sure how to get the dogs titled with a Master title so he is trying different things blindly only occasionally training with other pros to learn. He has titled Senior dogs but not easily. At times it seems he struggles with Junior dogs. He makes an excellent gun dog trainer. Wanting him to succeed I think the dog was sacrificed as an experiment but I do not think he's a wash out. I think with a properly skilled pro he would excell. That's hopefully the direction he's going to be going. The pro is one with the big truck and dog trailer--dresses great and is a GOOD talker and convinces you that he's the best one to have your dog with -- it was always something wrong with the test--judges--conditions--or maybe you spoiled your dog when he was home answers. As was stated it does not take a mental giant to figure out something was going wrong. Good lesson learned. I do not think the dog is a total loss and I do think with a season of training and a good pro he could be salvaged. AND he is an excellent hunter. Am looking forward to seeing him change and am going to start on a pup with the new found knowledge. Thanks for the encouragement and advise.
Peggy, it sounds like you have allready mentally made the decision; now don't delay on getting your dog to a competent trainer
 
Hard to assign blame and tell "whose at fault" - the pro for not be knowledgeable or in a capacity to get the dog to the next level - the dog for trainability - or the owner for not addressing this issue sooner.

I would opt to get a new trainer and give him a chance to see what he/she can do. I wouldn't give up on the dog yet. That takes care of all three possible faults. The day of reckoning will soon come.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
The problem is probably not the dog -- the problem is the trainer and the dogs owner.
The trainer was saying it is not unusal for a dog to be 4-5 YR before passing master. After watching other dogs--researching--and hearing comments the owner is thinking all these excuses why the dog did not pass by be and excuse. The good thing is that I think that the dog is smart enough to go to a different trainer and have some of his problems solved and I have every intention on giving him that chance. I think I just needed a push--so thanks to everyone for reminding me you don't have to know rocket science to figure out there's something wrong.
 
The trainer was saying it is not unusal for a dog to be 4-5 YR before passing master.
This might be true for an amateur trained dog, but not a pro trained dog IMO. And if this were true then why did the trainer not tell you that the dog was not ready to run Master yet instead of running him 15 times for 3 passes?

The good thing is that I think that the dog is smart enough to go to a different trainer and have some of his problems solved and I have every intention on giving him that chance. I think I just needed a push--so thanks to everyone for reminding me you don't have to know rocket science to figure out there's something wrong.
Good for you for giving the dog another chance with, hopefully a more experienced and successful AKC HT trainer, and good luck to your dog. Hopefully it is primarily a lack of high standards (accountability) as another poster suggested and the new trainer can impose some new standards to the dog and you may see some improvement quickly.
 
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