In Lardy's TRT video he mentions that he does not ever really go back to the TT drill b/c he does not want to get the dog used to returning to the same spot. My question then is this, do you return to the pattern blind field? If your dog is not popping, has no known issues, but does need work on holding and keeping a line would it ever be appropriate to go back to pattern blinds during the dogs transition/advanced training? I feel like they are good confidence builders and I just want to see what everyone's thoughts are. So how many people actually use pattern blinds after they have moved on to cold water and land blinds? Thanks.
Pattern Blinds
blakegober
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In Lardy's TRT video he mentions that he does not ever really go back to the TT drill b/c he does not want to get the dog used to returning to the same spot. My question then is this, do you return to the pattern blind field? If your dog is not popping, has no known issues, but does need work on holding and keeping a line would it ever be appropriate to go back to pattern blinds during the dogs transition/advanced training? I feel like they are good confidence builders and I just want to see what everyone's thoughts are. So how many people actually use pattern blinds after they have moved on to cold water and land blinds? Thanks.
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I rarely go back to the pattern blind field. I most definitely do not use the pattern blind field to teach lines...
I do go back to other drills with older dogs. Like swim-by and the "T". You'd be amazed how lousy they do on it.
I think in a drill type format the mentality of "not" repeating a drill because of sending the dog to the same spot is a non-issue. Regardless of the age. I think that's a rather out-dated mind set and most trainers no longer think that way. Remember those tapes/DVD's are now about 20 years old....
Angie
I do go back to other drills with older dogs. Like swim-by and the "T". You'd be amazed how lousy they do on it.
I think in a drill type format the mentality of "not" repeating a drill because of sending the dog to the same spot is a non-issue. Regardless of the age. I think that's a rather out-dated mind set and most trainers no longer think that way. Remember those tapes/DVD's are now about 20 years old....
Angie
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Pattern blinds are about teaching momentum and casting mechanics, so I agree with Angie, I don't return to pattern field to teach lines.
I do return to one particularly good pattern field I have to introduce gun stations, poisons and such, but it isn't lining, per se. And I move on from that field pretty quickly after the concept has been introduced.
Just my amateur observations.....
I do return to one particularly good pattern field I have to introduce gun stations, poisons and such, but it isn't lining, per se. And I move on from that field pretty quickly after the concept has been introduced.
Just my amateur observations.....
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In the Lardy program he states that "Dogs learn to go straight through casting." If you want to tighten up your lines then I would keep tighter line standards on your blinds. It all depends on how far in training your dog is. Casting and keeping good line standards help to teach better lines, fighting factors, ie falling off hills, fading with the wind, ect. Your dog will run better lines by running lots of blinds. Hope this helps.
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I use Pattern Blinds as a developmental exercise with all my dogs. Once the dogs are transitioned to a cold blind standard I do not return to known destination-type blinds, but for some rare exception such as problem solving of a type that may require it.
I do believe there is no outdating of a solid principle. Running to a known destination is one function, with one set of mental processes.
Running to unknown destinations is another function, with a different set of mental processes. I believe if a dog is going to be good at cold blinds that it will be a result of running effective cold blinds in an effective manner.
Most of the time when trainers are inclined to return to Pattern Blinds it's for the wrong reason. Their dogs are bugged about some aspect of blinds or blind running, but that is usually a result of poor application of training. That can be corrected without going backward on your own standards.
Evan
I do believe there is no outdating of a solid principle. Running to a known destination is one function, with one set of mental processes.
Running to unknown destinations is another function, with a different set of mental processes. I believe if a dog is going to be good at cold blinds that it will be a result of running effective cold blinds in an effective manner.
Most of the time when trainers are inclined to return to Pattern Blinds it's for the wrong reason. Their dogs are bugged about some aspect of blinds or blind running, but that is usually a result of poor application of training. That can be corrected without going backward on your own standards.
Evan
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So is this a correct assumption "dogs learn to run better/straighter lines by running lots of cold blinds and adding factors to them. Also, while running blinds insistance on correct lines is paramount." When running blinds it is important to insist on correct straight lines and not get caught up on just picking up the bird, i.e not letting the dog get way offline and then casting "over" when he is even with the bird. is this correct? Also, teaching a good lines is done through running a lot of cold blinds and not through a certain drills?
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Those are all good general observances. But none of them are ironclad rules. There are few of those.
First, you should adapt your training to the dog - not the dog to the training. That requires you to read your dog, make note of what you read, and adjust the application of your daily work to address his needs.
There are certainly drills to promote, and even maintain good lines on cold blinds. But, most of all, there are sound principles of blind running, as a handler, that will promote good blinds better than any one exercise.
Evan
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Evan, or anyone who could help me, I dont think this is a thread hijack but I have a pattern blind question. Do you teach all the pattern blinds from a remote sit or not? If so when do you switch from a remote to sending by your side?
My young bitch is now running in our All Age stakes and I have been tightening up her lining through casting. However, she has started to loose confidence anticipating a correction - does this mean I should go back to shorter cold blinds rather than known or pattern blinds?
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Really good exercise for your problem! They build an expectation of not only success, but big time fun...way out there!
Evan
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Could someone explain 'pop-up' blinds please? Thanks!
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It's when someone is hiding in ready to jump up yell "hey, hey" and throw the blind out like a mark to the blind stake.
Run your blind like you normally would. When the dogs momentum breaks down your going to radio your bb and have them toss the blind out with the dog watching. It pulls the dog out into the field instead of you pushing them with casting. Highly motivational.
It works well when casting starts to get bogged down and your digging a hole going back and forth trying to get the dog to the blind. It sometimes gets to the point where you just got to get the blind done.
You could also use a remote controlled winger or bumper boy for this. On a more difficult long blind I might have the bird boy stand up and shoot a flyer to the blind stake.... Yippeee! Life is good!
Angie
Angie - this sounds like good advice but would appreciate your views on this. Here we have what are called 'double falls' which is a bird thrown whilst the dog is on its way to a mark. The dog has to ignore the second bird (even when the dog is out of your sight!) and continue on to the first mark. Then collect the 'double fall'. My concern with pop up blinds is that this might be teaching the dog to collect the bird thrown on the way out even though the dog has been sent on a blind not a mark in the first place. What do you think - could it be set up to avoid confusion?
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Need some clarification... First you say that the dog will have to ignore a mark being thrown on the way to a mark. Then you say a dog will have to ingnore a mark being thrown on the way to a blind...
Which is it?? With either scenerio it will make little difference but just wanna know where you're coming from.
Angie
Sorry - I was referring to the double fall where a bird is thrown on the way out to a single mark. My reference to the blind was the pop up blind in training where you send (if I understand correctly) a dog to a blind and as the dog starts to falter and/or gets close to the blind a bird is thrown by a bird boy or launcher to encourage the dog to keep going and keep a positive attitude to blinds. As it is difficult to teach a dog to reliably ignore a double fall, especially if the primary mark is difficult, the last thing one wants to do is to confuse it. (In her last trial she picked up the double fall bird instead of the mark so out - more training needed). I can see though how the pop up blind would be great - just don't want to confuse the dog. Hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.
Good uses of PB
Teaching dogs to run blinds past marks with excelent attitude
Teaching dogs to run blinds before marks are picked up while maintaining excelent attidude
Teaching poison birds and maintaining exposive attitude.
Building and maintaining momentum
Teaching a dog to run like the wind until he becomes a little dot in the field.
Aiding the dog and teaching a dog by way of the breaking down of difficult factors with the ability to administer corrections without losing attitude and also maintaining explosive attitude toward blinds. Pattern blinds can put the dog in drive much faster and easier than running cold blinds,, in a young dog just learning blind work.
Because as the dog looks out his destination is accented with a prey object.
Its a great way to aid in the establishment of push pull and go as sent in the field
It can be utilized if you train alone
There are many more the of PB
There are alot of people who don't use pattern blind ,,,or rarely and they are also succesful, So I think its how you learned to build it.
I think for new people it is a great way for them to learn how to start lining and pushing and pulling their dog and just plain handling and learning to deal with factors.
Teaching dogs to run blinds past marks with excelent attitude
Teaching dogs to run blinds before marks are picked up while maintaining excelent attidude
Teaching poison birds and maintaining exposive attitude.
Building and maintaining momentum
Teaching a dog to run like the wind until he becomes a little dot in the field.
Aiding the dog and teaching a dog by way of the breaking down of difficult factors with the ability to administer corrections without losing attitude and also maintaining explosive attitude toward blinds. Pattern blinds can put the dog in drive much faster and easier than running cold blinds,, in a young dog just learning blind work.
Because as the dog looks out his destination is accented with a prey object.
Its a great way to aid in the establishment of push pull and go as sent in the field
It can be utilized if you train alone
There are many more the of PB
There are alot of people who don't use pattern blind ,,,or rarely and they are also succesful, So I think its how you learned to build it.
I think for new people it is a great way for them to learn how to start lining and pushing and pulling their dog and just plain handling and learning to deal with factors.
Good Post. IMHO if dogs learn to go straight through casting then it only makes sense to run a lot of patterns, and I mean a lot. ( 20 or more ) Patterns when first taught are in essence cold blinds, done on a repetitive basis until done with a high degree of success, ie. lining the blinds. IMHO there is nothing wrong with doing patterns throughout the dogs training program using different types of terrain, cover, water, ditches etc.
1. If you come back to a pattern 8 mo down the road its like something new to them.
2. They are a confidence builder when things are going rough in other areas of your training.
3. They are a great tool to use in conjunction with marks to teach poison birds, running tight lines behind chairs, under the arc, etc.
4. They are nothing more then a exaggerated yard drill,handling drill, lining drill depending what you want to work on that day.
5. Dogs like to do things they are successful at, and if your dog is not happy and doesn't like to run blinds he will never be a team player no matter how much HE loves you.
6. If for no other reason they are good exercise.
I also run a lot of cold blinds to, so don't think that patterns take the place of cold blinds. To me cold blinds tell you where you are in your training program. Cold blinds to me are a testing situation, you learn what your dog will do in trial situation and you learn weather or not you can trust your dog in certain situations or weather or not you will have to stop and cast, or trust them that they will keep on line and roll while out of site, cast on or off points take lines through cover at a distance,cast into water at a distance or line through it.
These things are all made possible through the use of pattern blinds. And lots of them. IMO
Sorry Pete, you beat me to it. You must have gotten up early to. Another good post, mine sounds repetitive to yours.
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