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I
see people take the collar off in training and then put it on and I will never understand it.
I am one of those people you don't understand. Let me give you my reasoning for why I do it. My dog is collar wise. Smart dog out of field line, quickly picks up any concept. Even though my dog wore a dummy collar for a month before CC and trained exclusively with it for months she understood that during play time the lightning bolt never burned her neck. She became more and more stubborn without a collar while airing or with me.

To head off the comment of "the dog should have a collar on if it is out of the kennel" I will go ahead and address this. The dog is out if I am home therefore on the weekend the dog would wear a collar for 72 hours straight as I work a four day week.

I take my collar off during training to assess my dog. I keep the marks or blinds short and I wear my tennis shoes on those days. The exact same level of discipline is required whether a collar is on or not. I still use the collar 95% of the time when training and always on long marks and blinds (the ones where I am too lazy to run that far). It works for me and I see less suprises when there is no collar on in a hunt test.

I have also trained with people who take a collar off and it simply means no corrections will be applied. Fun day for all!! This is not what I practice or advocate. If you always train with a collar I applaud your consistency and if I only wanted to hunt with my dogs I would do the same. I hope the your training philosophy works for you!:D

Mark L.
 
I can't believe I'm going to agree with Fishduck, but I do the same thing. Sometimes we train without a collar, setting up as if we were at a test and if a correction is needed, do it in person the old fashioned way. It surprises the heck out of them sometimes. Though this isn't a thread about using a collar per se, Miriam read her dog and did what she felt best for her and her dog instead of bowing to group pressure. I wish I'd had the cajones to do it myself years ago instead of doing some things I didn't think were right for a particular dog just because "that's the way we do it".
 
Kim don't worry I am sure I will make you mad again.
As for the expert comment. Thanks for the compliment you can truly enlighten yourself by searching for the posts of me and the rest of this panel of experts.

Fun reading
Mark L.
 
I really hesitate posting this, but the thread on hard mouth/freezing made me realize that most folks are honest about both the good & the bad when it comes to training their dogs.
Bottom line-don't take for granted what you have if you're fortunate enough to have a really good dog who allows you mistakes and is still willing to rise to the occasion and work for you. They really deserve the benefit of the doubt and that you always treat them fairly.
M
I didn't read Miriam asking for advice. I read an example of her honesty in sharing a story so she might share some philosophical wiadom.

close circuit to Legacy/Richard - you do know that Amish on this board is a trainig style, sans collar, and not Miriam's choice of religion?:wink:
Lyle
 
You can questin the decision-everyone else did, but-you have to remember that I am Amish at heart. If I don't have his respect w/out a collar-what do I have? Tne bottom line is that he took my whistles & casts.
Your welcome back in the fold anytime Sister M! Somethings just aren't found in a flow chart or the latest Pro's article/vid! Good on you for following your own intuition! ;)

Brother Peake
________
SQUIRTING VIDS
 
Kim don't worry I am sure I will make you mad again.
Mark L.
Nah, back on caffeine and sugar, the dogs and husband suffer too much when I try to be healthy.
 
Smart move IMHO

Got to get the momentum back and I think a non threatening way is a good way to do it.

Also got to get the trust back. He probably gave you an honest effort in a confusing situation and when he got burned, internalized the pressure which was inappropriatly applied and would rather not do anything than the wrong thing.
Yup, I agree. When they know you will walk out and give them what for when off collar, they do learn it. Might not do it while learning a concept, but if they know what they are supposed to do, I will go naked several times a week.

Not afraid to get my feet wet regards
 
I can't believe I'm going to agree with Fishduck, but I do the same thing. Sometimes we train without a collar, setting up as if we were at a test and if a correction is needed, do it in person the old fashioned way. It surprises the heck out of them sometimes. Though this isn't a thread about using a collar per se, Miriam read her dog and did what she felt best for her and her dog instead of bowing to group pressure. I wish I'd had the cajones to do it myself years ago instead of doing some things I didn't think were right for a particular dog just because "that's the way we do it".
This is an interesting concept to me. I hadn't thought of it that way before. It makes sense. Do you do it randomly or do you try it a couple times in the advance of a test / trial? Trying to cement the idea that I will enforce a standard with or without the collar.

Brian
 
Originally Posted by Goldenboy
. . .
Although the path to training enlightenment is a journey, every journey must come to an end.
I see why you deleted this statement. When one stops the journey of enlightenment as respects dog training, he/she will likely be left in the dust of others who continue to learn. Isn’t that what Danny Farmer calls a Phase II trainer?
 
Miriam, Congrats on your decision. You and I tend to get into similar fixes and we both beat ourselves up about them. I can tell you that my wild child that needs to be held down by a logging chain "No Goed" one day. In retrospect, it was my failure to stand up to the group and say "he doesn't get it" and continue with the badly applied e correction for "other issues" . End result, he wasn't moving again that day. That was it, never happened again. So even though unlike you I made the wrong decision, it has never happened again, and this dog continues to go through the fire for me and still has faith. Geez, and I thought he was a smart dog.

Believe in your instincts, no one can read Finn the way you can.
 
The collar was developed as a convenience, to not have to run out to your dog. It's just a matter of combining both techniques and no reason why it would not work. Both techniques are corrections, just different methods. But timing would be critical with whatever method you use. That's my take for whatever it's worth.
I have on occassion ran out to get a good close-up and personal correction, but only because I realized my collar was 'off" or not charged, not as a thought out training method.
I'm usually stressed for time and the collar is more convenient.
 
This is an interesting concept to me. I hadn't thought of it that way before. It makes sense. Do you do it randomly or do you try it a couple times in the advance of a test / trial? Trying to cement the idea that I will enforce a standard with or without the collar.

Brian
Most of the time, I and our group both train with collars on, I always have collars on for concepts, drills etc. But as a group that meets twice a week, we set up for HT, holding blinds, honoring, etc. We set up MH marks and break them down for SH and JH dogs, etc. We don't do it often as a group but just every once in a while to see where the dogs are, everyone drops collars and away we go, mostly if we have a bunch of young dogs that haven't seen a lot of tests yet, lets them know they will get corrected in the field collar or not. Not on water since can't really go out and correct unless someone wants a swim. Our honoring/steadiness drills are always without collar, line up the dogs, someone shoots flyers short, hot, lots of noise, trainer says which dog goes, anyone else breaks, makes noise, etc, corrections are hands on and personal. I've got some hot dogs but the one thing none of them have ever done at a test is break. Now that should jinx us for the next couple tests if nothing else, dang, and my one girl needs to pass her next test to qualify for the MN, shoot.
 
An important point should not be lost here, always do what you think is right for your dog, and do not be pressured, or bullied into something you feel in your gut is wrong.

This is difficult to do, when you are inexperienced, and training with people who are telling you differently. But, it is ok to stop and live for another day, when things are cooler, and you have had time to think about it.
 
Now that should jinx us for the next couple tests if nothing else, dang, and my one girl needs to pass her next test to qualify for the MN, shoot.
Saw Jack run a couple last weekend and they looked pretty good. Not sure which one needs the pass. but the series I got to watch they did a nice job.
 
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