Swim-by Application

Sean H · Jul 10, 2008

Just about done teaching swim-by with my first dog and have a question about the application of it.

When should the swim-by be executed?

1. The moment you see that the dog diverts off line and heads toward the shore (whether is be 1 or 30 yds away from shore).

2. When the dog gets to the shore off-line.

I'm thinking #1 because you want to tell the dog "no, more water" the instant he says "less water," but I've only seen them executed when the dog tries to cheat at the last second.

GONEHUNTIN' · Jul 10, 2008

I have always let them hit solid ground, then nicked them and handled them off. I believe they understand the principal better if they can clearly associate the nick with the land.

Once you have taught them to keep their feet wet, seeking center seem easier. In my opinion.

Uncle Bill · Jul 10, 2008

Sean H said:
Just about done teaching swim-by with my first dog and have a question about the application of it.

When should the swim-by be executed?

1. The moment you see that the dog diverts off line and heads toward the shore (whether is be 1 or 30 yds away from shore).

2. When the dog gets to the shore off-line.

I'm thinking #1 because you want to tell the dog "no, more water" the instant he says "less water," but I've only seen them executed when the dog tries to cheat at the last second.

After swim-by schooling, then you need to put the dog through a series of de-cheating exercises, which I do on land first to teach the dog that handling will occur if it's not going as sent. Then on cheaty water marks, and teaching the dog to take straight lines, even if angle entries or not.

Many programs have these exercises explained...Graham, Lardy, etc.

As to the 'frequently' used application, I used it more on the return of the dog with the dummy/bird/whatever. That's where it really pays off in spades...being able to direct the animal with the object in its' mouth.

My usage keeps the dog coming back on the line it took going out, and teaching it to not cheat either direction. It's extremely helpful when the dog gets off track and into heavy current on the river. Or handling them around a snag in the slough, or off a dam with several old car bodies stacked on the water side.

That's the reason I put my dogs through swim-by. I'm sure there are many others. Hopefully some of those differences will be posted for you.

Good luck.

UB

Sean H · Jul 10, 2008

Uncle Bill, I am following Evan's stuff and agree when the swim-by should be applied (the dog is on his way back with the bumper in his mouth). My question was to the specific instant the swim by is executed on the way back. Dog has bumper and is swimming back. He's 20 yards from shore and changes his route to dock early. Do you give him the swim by the instant he changes course to dock early or do you let him reach shore before you give him the swim by?

GONEHUNTIN', thanks for the reply.

Kevin Eskam · Jul 11, 2008

That is what the dog has learned in swimby, Get in the water and stay in the water.

When the dog goes across to get a bumper in swimby, jumps in the water and is headed towards you and you send him to the right down the channel you are telling the dog to stay in the water.

So if the dog is coming back to you and changes his course to get out early, I would put the dog back on course or stay in the water.

Uncle Bill · Jul 11, 2008

Handle him the same way you would going out. As it heads for a location you don't want it going, blow the whistle and correct it. If it doesn't seem to understand, blow the whistle and 'erase' its' thinking by giving it a "back!", and handle it to where it is again on the line you want it to come in on.

The purpose of the swim-by concept is to teach the dog to "go where sent", not just mindlessly return by land or any other direction but what you the handler insist on.

This is again, an exercise using primarily attrition, unless the dog flagrantly ignores your commands...then correction juice is called for. It has been educated in going where sent, so it has no excuse for not obeying your command. Just make sure you are reading the dog correctly, so you aren't punishing for confusion.

UB

1NarlyBar · Jul 11, 2008

Sean,

You answered your own question........#1

But as Bill said, you need to teach them what it means to cheat. Meaning very simple, clear cut concepts that the dog can understand both on the way to the bumper and on the return. Drills. Then you can start being a bit picky about return lines on marks and especially NEW blinds.

You see... The Swim-by imo is what truly makes dogs able to grasp advanced water concepts. True champions will come up to run a blind and see many different potential objectives on a piece of water, and will choose the one closest to the handler's position. This is due to the repetitive exposure to the numerous water concepts over time. You may run certain water blinds once a month or once a year. By using the swim-by(both Blinds/marks; land/water) you get two opportunities to teach a dog the objective of each concept.

The biggest thing you need to understand is that you shouldn't be burning a dog for returning off line unless there is no response to your cast or if there was an obvious attempt to deviate from the proper line. Simply show your dog the correct line on it's return. Tweet-tweet(Cast), "No"(cast), then (Burn)"NO"(cast).

Hope this helps.

Oh Yeah, Hi Everybody!!!

Barly's Narly Boy

George C. Tull · Jul 11, 2008

Sean H said:
Uncle Bill, I am following Evan's stuff and agree when the swim-by should be applied (the dog is on his way back with the bumper in his mouth). My question was to the specific instant the swim by is executed on the way back. Dog has bumper and is swimming back. He's 20 yards from shore and changes his route to dock early. Do you give him the swim by the instant he changes course to dock early or do you let him reach shore before you give him the swim by?

GONEHUNTIN', thanks for the reply.

Sean, I'm probably not well enough experienced to actually be giving an opinion, further more, advise. But, I can tell you the way I went through it.
From the above quote you posted I have to determine that you aren't doing the swim-by drill, but rather in a retrieve type situation where you are in an angle entry, angle return situation......right?
If so and the dog has been thoroughly into swim-by I would say soon as you read the signs of exiting early would be the time to put the dog into swim-by. Why wait? The signs are there so, correct!
Swim-by, has seemed to me, to be one of a few misunderstood drills after reading about it on forums. It isn't a cast. It's simply a 'more water' statement from the handler given when reading a dog that says 'less water'. $.02

1NarlyBar · Jul 11, 2008

George C. Tull said:
Swim-by, has seemed to me, to be one of a few misunderstood drills after reading about it on forums. It isn't a cast. It's simply a 'more water' statement from the handler given when reading a dog that says 'less water'. $.02

George,

Although "stay in the water" is a large focus point for many trainers when initially starting the swim-by, it should not be the only concept you and your dog get from this exercise. That would be like telling our dogs to parallel a bank to backside the gunner for a bird that was thrown away from the water.

Basically, I would say that completing the swim-by is like finishing the last steps to prep a race car before the steering wheel goes on.

Now you can put the steering wheel on.

Meaning, once you've completed the swim-by your dog should have an understanding that you're in control of it's movement regardless of its proximity to land or water. In the swim-by we use water and land as basic boundaries. You are not simply teaching the dog when it is/isn't time to get out of the water.
To teach a dog the swim-by you must use a bit of pushing(angle-back) and pulling(here) to get the dog on line and to it's destination. And later you do it again with bird in mouth. Then you do cheating drills(marks/blinds), handling the dog both to and FROM the bird when needed to keep a good line. Then regular marks, handling on the return if the dog goes off course. Then Big Boy Blinds, both to and From.

Then.........This continues on for the rests of the dogs career.

Steering wheel's on....and we're ready to start the engine.

George C. Tull · Jul 11, 2008

I agree. A dog that has been thoroughly through swim-by will be less apt to cheat. Makes other drills much easier for them if they've got this concept.

I sometimes see folks explain it as nothing more than a water 'T' drill.

Swim-by Application

Sean H

GONEHUNTIN'

Uncle Bill

Sean H

Kevin Eskam

Uncle Bill

1NarlyBar

George C. Tull

1NarlyBar

George C. Tull

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