Judging inline marks?

Kevin WI · Jul 20, 2008

I've discussed this at length with co-judges and handlers alike.
When setting up a test, be it masters, finished etc., if you are trying to evaluate the dogs marking ability, why or why not set up in-line marks?

There are two camps that I've discussed this at length:
On one side there are those that say if you are testing a dogs marking ability, why would you set up a scenario that is intended to wipe out the memory of one of the marks? Are you testing the dogs marking ability or are you testing the dogs ability to overcome an obvious diversion? Just because it happens in true hunting situations, doesn't make it an effective evaluation technique for natural marking ability.

There is the other side that feels that any dogs marking ability can be evaluated fairly as long as it has the time to clearly see each mark, no matter where it is placed or what obstacles lie between the line and the fall area (whether it be suction, diversion, or physical obstacles).

Honestly, from the people I've talked to, the results were all over the map as far as opinions went and experience level. I see it set up at many hunt tests, more-so at AKC than HRC. At the HRC Judges/Handlers seminar they recommend NOT setting up in-line marks.

Just wondering for the sake of discussion, with which camp you sit?

okvet · Jul 20, 2008

I attended a HRC Judges seminar last spring and I don't remember in-line marks not being recommended. I have no problem with in-line marks--heck had one at the last master test I ran. A good dog as long as he/she can truely see the mark well should be able to run inline marks---I believe there are other testing scenerios that wipe out marks tougher than an inline--a few I have seen are picking up a diversion after the go bird--which seems to be very common now in finshed tests. In the master class it seems I see more tests where a tough triple is thrown--the go bird is picked up--then have to run a blind after the go bird then pick up the two remaining marks. I believe this is a little tougher on the dog then a nice inline---but I have no problem with inline and a dog competing at the finshed/master level should be able to complete the task.

Sue Kiefer · Jul 20, 2008

IMHTO,
In-lines are a concept type mark that has to be taught like ma/pa's,etc........
I personally think that it's rather an eliminatation type mark rather than peer marking per say.The tighter the in-lines the more difficult the test/trial.
Again it's a concept type set-up.
My 2cents on a Sunday am

Sue

badbullgator · Jul 20, 2008

ginger69 said:
IMHTO,
In-lines are a concept type mark that has to be taught like ma/pa's,etc........
I personally think that it's rather an eliminatation type mark rather than peer marking per say.The tighter the in-lines the more difficult the test/trial.
Again it's a concept type set-up.
My 2cents on a Sunday am
Sue

Sue, not trying to pick on you, but…duh! Yes you have to teach it, but then again what didn’t you have to teach your dog. Yes it makes a test/trail harder, but when you are running AA/Open or Masters one would expect the test and or trails to be progressively harder than previously levels. How boring would it be to go to a test/trail every weekend and run 3 marks all separated by 90 degrees?

I have not heard it discouraged at a seminar. Marking is marking be it three marks spread widely apart or in lines. I understand that some feel it is trying to confuse a dog….well yes sort of. I want to see a dog mark if the bird falls behind a log, rock, across a ditch, in the cover or……..behind another mark. If the dog can mark he can mark in lines as well as any other. People love to bitch about things they don’t train of or that their dogs don’t do well, but that does not make them an unfair evaluation of marking abilities. If the dog can see it, it better mark it regardless of where it falls.
Do I set it up as an elimination? No I don’t set anything up as an elimination, eliminating dogs never comes into my mind in a set up. Do I like to set it up? You bet. It is a scenario that occurs often in hunting and is a very legitimate marking set up. This also goes to the above statement that people who don’t train for a scenario like to bitch about it a call it an "elimination test" or a "concept mark" because their dog can’t do it because they never work on it. Hear the same thing with poison birds, diversions, breaking birds….whatever it is someone’s dog is not good at it, it becomes unfair, a poor scenario, or an elimination set-up.

Kevin WI · Jul 20, 2008

ok...not taking sides...but let me ask you this bbg. Are you now testing the dogs trained ability or are you testing the dogs natural marking ability when you throw out a concept like this?
Some in camp 1 feel that this is a test against a given standard...and you should be evaluating the dogs natural marking ability and that evaluating trained ability comes while evaluating the blind(s). But at a trial this would be considered ok, because you are actually trying to evaluate trained ability on marking and make one stand out from the crowd.

badbullgator · Jul 20, 2008

Flowageboy said:
ok...not taking sides...but let me ask you this bbg. Are you now testing the dogs trained ability or are you testing the dogs natural marking ability when you throw out a concept like this?
Some in camp 1 feel that this is a test against a given standard...and you should be evaluating the dogs natural marking ability and that evaluating trained ability comes while evaluating the blind(s). But at a trial this would be considered ok, because you are actually trying to evaluate trained ability on marking and make one stand out from the crowd.

I consider it a marking test period. Dogs do mark naturally to some extent, but think about it….all marks are taught to a dog from the day you start running walking singles for you puppy. Doubles are not “natural” nor are triples; you have to teach a dog to run multiples. You have to teach most dogs to run just about every type of mark you throw. They ability to remember where a bird lands is somewhat natural, but no dog goes from picking up a 30 yard puppy mark thrown on the soccer field to picking up multiple marks in cover at 100 yards. This is why we train with stickmen, white coats, exposed bird boys… Do you teach your dogs reentries? Do you de-cheat them? Is a test with a reentry a “concept test”? Look at it like this, a golf pro can teach you to drive a golf ball
(let’s remember that Tiger has more natural ability than any golfer ever, and he uses a swing coach). Now you can hit a ball off a tee and you have the natural ability to do, but if you want to hit a fade or add distance you must work on that, it takes natural ability, but also practice (or training if you like). To me marks and training are one in the same, any retriever (almost) can mark, but they must be trained, or at least exposed to the literally thousands of marking scenarios they may come across.
Your use of natural ability is kind of confusing because I have yet to see any dog run a master, or even senior set-up that was not trained to mark multiples. If it were a natural skill there would be no reason to start with singles, just toss as many birds as you see fit and the natural abilities of the dog will then lead it to pick them up. No I fall in the camp the natural abilities must be enhanced through training

GulfCoast · Jul 20, 2008

Threadjack: I hear "in line" used 3 diffrent ways very often. One is "over/under" marks, one is a series of marks thrown in a line at about 45 degrees, first long, second shorter, third shortest, and the other is "side by side" marks, like a line of stickmen stretched across a goal line. It gets hard sometimes in threads like this to figure out which "version" is being discussed. Threadjack over.

I have been to 3 HRC seminars in the last 2 years, and have not heard either derivitive of "in lines" mentioned. I see over/under's hunting all the time.

Richard Reese · Jul 20, 2008

The only problem I have with in lines is if the short bird of the in line is first ( breaking bird), a bird out of line is thrown second (right or left of the in line) and the long bird of the in line is thrown last as the go bird without any duck calls and the gun is shot while the bird is in flight. I have seen this set up at a master test. This concept does not allow the dog adequate time to mark the fall of the go bird, when sent he will almost always pick up the short in line bird first. You pick up the out of line bird second and then try to send the dog back thru the short bird for the long in line he had very little time to mark. Makes for a tough series

Richard

Kevin WI · Jul 20, 2008

WME said:
Threadjack: I hear "in line" used 3 diffrent ways very often. One is "over/under" marks, one is a series of marks thrown in a line at about 45 degrees, first long, second shorter, third shortest, and the other is "side by side" marks, like a line of stickmen stretched across a goal line. It gets hard sometimes in threads like this to figure out which "version" is being discussed. Threadjack over.

I have been to 3 HRC seminars in the last 2 years, and have not heard either derivitive of "in lines" mentioned. I see over/under's hunting all the time.

Over/under...yep...same thing....I've attended the same as far as Judges/handler seminars...last one in March we went over in-line's in great detail as something to avoid setting up...same with rapport(sp?) doubles.

Uncle Bill · Jul 20, 2008

badbullgator said:
I consider it a marking test period. Dogs do mark naturally to some extent, but think about it….all marks are taught to a dog from the day you start running walking singles for you puppy. Doubles are not “natural” nor are triples; you have to teach a dog to run multiples. You have to teach most dogs to run just about every type of mark you throw. They ability to remember where a bird lands is somewhat natural, but no dog goes from picking up a 30 yard puppy mark thrown on the soccer field to picking up multiple marks in cover at 100 yards. This is why we train with stickmen, white coats, exposed bird boys… Do you teach your dogs reentries? Do you de-cheat them? Is a test with a reentry a “concept test”? Look at it like this, a golf pro can teach you to drive a golf ball
(let’s remember that Tiger has more natural ability than any golfer ever, and he uses a swing coach). Now you can hit a ball off a tee and you have the natural ability to do, but if you want to hit a fade or add distance you must work on that, it takes natural ability, but also practice (or training if you like). To me marks and training are one in the same, any retriever (almost) can mark, but they must be trained, or at least exposed to the literally thousands of marking scenarios they may come across.
Your use of natural ability is kind of confusing because I have yet to see any dog run a master, or even senior set-up that was not trained to mark multiples. If it were a natural skill there would be no reason to start with singles, just toss as many birds as you see fit and the natural abilities of the dog will then lead it to pick them up. No I fall in the camp the natural abilities must be enhanced through training

This is a DY-NO-MITE post, Cory. Couldn't have stated it better.

It is all too frequent that handlers that don't train these various concepts, are quick to find fault with them, even tho they ARE what hunters face every season. Why would we not set up a test that shows us if a finished/master level dog has these capabilities?

If your dog doesn't grasp this at a given test, then you have learned what additional training you need to do.

UB

Criquetpas · Jul 20, 2008

ginger69 said:
IMHTO,
In-lines are a concept type mark that has to be taught like ma/pa's,etc........
I personally think that it's rather an eliminatation type mark rather than peer marking per say.The tighter the in-lines the more difficult the test/trial.
Again it's a concept type set-up.
My 2cents on a Sunday am
Sue

I agree, fountains or ma/pa's have to be taught, you must get both birds no matter what the order is or you risk a handle or going back to an old fall. You can only do this with a trained response. Over and unders the same way , (a in-line in field trial semantics is a different set-up) so I choose to use the term over and under.

Do I like either set-up at a hunt test or trial NO, have I set them up as a judge, sure, for we are judging training! not set-ups and the best trained dog for the weekend wins (at a FT) or passes at a Master.

Sue Kiefer · Jul 20, 2008

I never said that it wasn't a marking concept that shouldn't be taught.
What I'm saying is that it is one of the more difficult concepts to teach a dog. It's not a mere marking type of test as some have suggested.
Judging ,I like to look at my given field and see what that field and conditions offer me first ,before just decideing that "I'm just going to do an in-line ".And if I run under you and you throw that at me so be it. I just hope that you have the umgh to continue judging my stake with that same degree of difficulty throughout!!
And not come back with a wimpy blind or one that you judge to loosely.
Bring it on!!!!!!!

Granddaddy · Jul 21, 2008

I heard the "inline" definition several ways also. But I think it can be both an over-under & marks in line at 45 deg or any other angle.

An in-line to me is when ALL the marks are placed on a line. So in a triple set-up, the line might be drawn at 45 deg, it might be 60 deg or unfortunately near 90 deg (like and over-under). The distinction IMO is that you can have an over-under but have a third mark at wide angle and not in a line with the over-under. While a triple in-line would have all three marks along a near-straight line regardless of the angle or distance from the starting line.

Henry V · Jul 21, 2008

Over under marks happen frequently in hunting. They should be pretty standard in hunt tests IMHO.
In-line double and triples are great for assessing marking ability and memory. They should be part of any "tests" where marking is of primary importance, shouldn't they?
Great posts BBG.

Kevin WI · Jul 21, 2008

Henry V said:
Over under marks happen frequently in hunting. They should be pretty standard in hunt tests IMHO.
In-line double and triples are great for assessing marking ability and memory. They should be part of any "tests" where marking is of primary importance, shouldn't they?
Great posts BBG.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but ask any experienced judge...just because something happens often when hunting, doesn't necessarily make it a good test setup to evaluate a dog. I drop lots of ducks in the cattails a lot...doesn't make it a good way to evaluate marking.;-)

badbullgator · Jul 21, 2008

Flowageboy said:
I understand the point you are trying to make, but ask any experienced judge...just because something happens often when hunting, doesn't necessarily make it a good test setup to evaluate a dog. I drop lots of ducks in the cattails a lot...doesn't make it a good way to evaluate marking.;-)

Well that depends – LVL(TM). I kind of feel like cover is an important part of marking and cattails are certainly a big part of both my training and testing set-ups. Care to explain how it is you feel that a mark thrown in cover would not be a good way to evaluate marking? Would that be a "concept mark"?
Confused Regards

paul young · Jul 21, 2008

3 ducks thrown in cattails at the edge of a pond.....

1- how do you know if the dog switched it's hunt?

2- how do you know if the dog switched birds?

3-how do you know what kind of a hunt the dog put on for each bird?

4- how do you know if the dog picked it right up or whether it rolled or peed on the bird, first?

5- why would a judge put themselves in this position?

i could go on......-paul

paul young · Jul 21, 2008

to get back on the topic of this thread, specifically, i don't like in-line marks at tests and trials.

go to the portion of the regs where it talks about the size of the aof in relation to when the mark is retrieved.

i don't have my book here to quote, but the gist of it is each bird that is retrieved should have a larger aof assigned to it than the previous bird(s).

in-line triple on land, dog picks up the short, then the long, and is sent for the middle. as a judge i CAN'T assign a larger acceptable area for the dog to hunt. if it expands it's hunt even a little it's going to get into an old fall. i have no decision to make. the test setup did it for me.

if you spread the marks out a little, it gets a whole bunch easier to judge. and guess what? if the dog doesn't know where the bird is it's REALLY EASY TO JUDGE. thats the way i prefer to judge marking and memory...-paul

badbullgator · Jul 21, 2008

paul young said:
3 ducks thrown in cattails at the edge of a pond.....

1- how do you know if the dog switched it's hunt?

2- how do you know if the dog switched birds?

3-how do you know what kind of a hunt the dog put on for each bird?

4- how do you know if the dog picked it right up or whether it rolled or peed on the bird, first?

5- why would a judge put themselves in this position?

i could go on......-paul

Come on Paul, why would you throw THREE ducks in the cattails at the edge of the pond. Ever hear of separating your marks. Set up as you describe would be a cluster. Now three marks with good separation with one falling in cattails is a good test of marking ability. The test you describe might as well be “throw three ducks in a dark closet, put the dog in and close the door, then try to tell what bird was picked up first. An example of how not to set up a test does not mean that a good test cannot be set up in a similar situation by someone who actually thinks it out.

MIDTNGRNHEAD · Jul 21, 2008

I'm sure there is a mixed camp out there and I'd fall in that group. Some true inlines(two birds, one short, one long, not just tight lines) are marginally fair. Your asking a dog to fight through an area full of scent to get to the long bird. How fair is that for the later dogs when 30, 40, 50 birds have hit the ground.

Judging inline marks?

Kevin WI

okvet

Sue Kiefer

badbullgator

Kevin WI

badbullgator

GulfCoast

Richard Reese

Kevin WI

Uncle Bill

Criquetpas

Sue Kiefer

Granddaddy

Henry V

Kevin WI

badbullgator

paul young

paul young

badbullgator

MIDTNGRNHEAD

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