If someone decides to train a dog solely for hunting and doesn't FF the dog, what are the things they will have to worry about and what are some tips for making sure that they can still have a well trained dog?
Training a dog without FF
torrey
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Of all the things that I might not do force fetch would not be one of them.
Force fetch makes retrieving obligatory rather than voluntary.
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Force fetch makes the dog retrieve because you want it to, not because the dog wants to. Most retrievers will pick up a duck in the decoys without much difficulty on a warm calm day. Take that same un FFd dog and put a patch of briars between it and the duck, or skim ice on the pond or deep belly sucking marsh mud, or make the duck a cripple instead of graveyard dead, and there are plenty of dogs who will tell you to get it yourself.
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Depends on the dog. I didnt FF my last HUNTING dog. But he was a retrieving animal!!!!! Didn't care about anything but getting that bumper or bird. Could have killed him in July/August by running him in the ground and he would have kept going. But my new dog is not this driven and I plan to run him in trails so he will be FF.
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My pup is going through FF right now but my dad isn't FFing his dog (litter mate to mine). His last dog he didn't FF and was excellent but ended up having a very short hunting career due to a back problem and was retired to the couch (but she was a great couch dog).
Now that my dad is retired he will be doing a lot more bird hunting but he's pretty much going to be pheasant hunting only...maybe some geese but no waterfowl. He's going through the OB work now and my dad's pup has hold down pat.
Guess I'm just getting ideas for him.
Now that my dad is retired he will be doing a lot more bird hunting but he's pretty much going to be pheasant hunting only...maybe some geese but no waterfowl. He's going through the OB work now and my dad's pup has hold down pat.
Guess I'm just getting ideas for him.
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Not FFing will probably not make any difference at all to your dads dog. The thing is, if the dog ever refuses to rertieve something you have no tool to enfocre the fetch command with. Besides fetching, FF adds a lot to a retrievers training. That said, there are probably more birds retrieved each year by dogs that are not FF'd then are FF'd.
Ultimately, it is your dads dog and he should train him the way he wants.
Tom
Ultimately, it is your dads dog and he should train him the way he wants.
Tom
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Force fetching does a LOT more than just ensure reliable retrieving and good mouth habits. It is the basis for all the training that follows. It sets the tone for the trainer/pupil relationship.
Force Fetch to a dog is like boot camp to a soldier; he could probably be a soldier without it but ..... ;-)
JS
Force Fetch to a dog is like boot camp to a soldier; he could probably be a soldier without it but ..... ;-)
JS
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in my opinion
training a dog without going through force fetch is like installing a light without a switch.
training a dog without going through force fetch is like installing a light without a switch.
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I agree the FF lays a lot of the ground work and set the tone for the handler-dog relationship as well as a strong foundation in basic obedience. Bedies what has already been said about FF giving you a command the dog knows and obeys when it comes to retrieving anything, I think it also sets up a more reliable delivery to hand and also is teh foundation for teaching casting.
I had a good buddy in South Dakota that had the backyard bred yellow lab pheasant "dawg." He really did little training other than on the job training and after 3-4 years of pushing birds around every weekend of the season she had become a pretty nice flushing retriever. I said to him one day as he and I were blocking at the end of the field as the drivers were making their way to us that Ginger was sure turning out nice for him and what he wanted, but that if she were FF'ed she would really be reliable. He kind of dismissed and said "Aw shucks, I don't need to have that, she is not a test/trial dog or anything like that." No sooner did he say that, but a bird got up down the field and was knocked down in the discing between the two strips of corn the guys were working towards us. Ginger lept into action and made a sweet retrieve on that "not able to fly, but plenty of leg" rooster. Enroute back to us the guys flush another bird right at the end of the field. Ginger seeing this forgets anything she ever knew ( or didn't know) about delivery to hand and drops the cripple and dashes into the corn for the stone cold dead bird mere feet from my buddy and myself. The cripple escaped us that day and was never found...coyote food. I said to my buddy, a solid understanding of FF and delivery to hand and that probably wouldn't have happened.
And when I start teaching my dogs casting, I use the "fetch" command to get them moving before I introduce "over" or "back." If the dog doesn't know what "fetch" means, what do you do. Keep tossing that bumper out there and hope they figure out what "over" means?
Seems like FF is one of those things I would never leave out of the retriever basic vocabulary.
I had a good buddy in South Dakota that had the backyard bred yellow lab pheasant "dawg." He really did little training other than on the job training and after 3-4 years of pushing birds around every weekend of the season she had become a pretty nice flushing retriever. I said to him one day as he and I were blocking at the end of the field as the drivers were making their way to us that Ginger was sure turning out nice for him and what he wanted, but that if she were FF'ed she would really be reliable. He kind of dismissed and said "Aw shucks, I don't need to have that, she is not a test/trial dog or anything like that." No sooner did he say that, but a bird got up down the field and was knocked down in the discing between the two strips of corn the guys were working towards us. Ginger lept into action and made a sweet retrieve on that "not able to fly, but plenty of leg" rooster. Enroute back to us the guys flush another bird right at the end of the field. Ginger seeing this forgets anything she ever knew ( or didn't know) about delivery to hand and drops the cripple and dashes into the corn for the stone cold dead bird mere feet from my buddy and myself. The cripple escaped us that day and was never found...coyote food. I said to my buddy, a solid understanding of FF and delivery to hand and that probably wouldn't have happened.
And when I start teaching my dogs casting, I use the "fetch" command to get them moving before I introduce "over" or "back." If the dog doesn't know what "fetch" means, what do you do. Keep tossing that bumper out there and hope they figure out what "over" means?
Seems like FF is one of those things I would never leave out of the retriever basic vocabulary.
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What most of these guys said is true. FF'ing doesn't necessarily make him retrieve, but to do it in any condition, without reservation. But more importantly, it teaches your dog how to handle pressure as well as lay the foundation for future training should you decide to take him/her further... i.e. collar conditioning, handling training, etc.....It will also show you what temperament you are dealing with at a deeper level and how your dog handles pressure. In short, it's just too valuable a step to skip. Hope this helps.
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I will 2nd this opinion/situation this is a BASIC hunting dog skill.
Guiding Pheasant hunters at a SD lodge with the occasional client who's dog is not FF'd REALLY makes you appreciate this tool.
John
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It is like building a house without a foundation.
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Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
British and Irish Field Trials are run as close to a real shooting day as can be and the standard is very high; you don't win one with a sloppy retriever; non of those dogs is FF'd. I've trained six dogs (ESS and Labs) from such stock thus far without it and can truthfully say, hand on heart, I've never had a trained dog refuse a retrieve.
Decide beforehand just exactly what your aims and desires will be. Have a clear view of the sort of dog you want, and plan your training to that end. Don't "butterfly train", have a steady progression of building blocks in mind, and don't be in a rush. Train regularly with a group, and train every day if at all possible; better for you and the dog if it's in short lessons. Learn the theory and keep your cool.
If a dog is bred right, from known and dependable working stock, FF is entirely redundant.
Eug
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Many replies to the original question seem to me to conflate FF with a structured training regime (which it may well be) but fail to recognise that structured training can and does exist without it, and to advanced levels.
kbcoltcompany posted
HoHumsretrievers posted
Bob posted
Get the right stuff, know the theory, train intelligently with clear aims and objectives, and there is no reason to FF.
Eug
kbcoltcompany posted
All mine handle at distance; non is FF'd or CC'd. FF may well fit into your training program but it isn't a neccessary or vital part of training a sound retriever.
HoHumsretrievers posted
As above. I think you may be equating the lack of FF with "no training at all." So the answer is .. train the dog.
Bob posted
Perhaps there are; but like I said I've never had a refusal and never FF'd. You may be assured there is the odd bramble thicket round here, and patches of damp ground are said to exist on the Solway.
Get the right stuff, know the theory, train intelligently with clear aims and objectives, and there is no reason to FF.
Eug
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My first trained retriever was a black Lab female - a grand daughter of High Point Derby dog Mac Gene's Fall Guy (I still love that name!). She was never force fetched, nor e-collar conditioned. She had a Qualifying win and several other placements. There were no hunt tests at the time, but a win in the Q was exciting for a first time trainer!
Experience can be a wonderful teacher. That girl was a tremendous marker, and a strong lining dog. Given better training - including force fetch and e-collar conditioning - she should have been a field champion. There is no doubt, nor going back.
Live and learn regards,
Evan
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Larkin,
That sure is a handsome 'peake in your avatar! What training method did you use with him/her F-F or not?
Thanks,
Peake
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Bondage amateur
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