How does one adress the oroblem of a dog that trains well but is "self employed" at the trial/test ?
Trial wise dog
john fallon
21 - 40 of 45 Posts
Joined
·
899 Posts
A trial wise chronic creeper is something I am painfully familiar with.
Paul's advice is as good as any I've seen.
One other comment:
A well known successful Ft'er told me what ever you do, it's patchwork.
Fixes seem to be short term.
But short term is better than no term.
On a happy note, an enthusiastic dog is always a pleasure to watch.
Paul's advice is as good as any I've seen.
One other comment:
A well known successful Ft'er told me what ever you do, it's patchwork.
Fixes seem to be short term.
But short term is better than no term.
On a happy note, an enthusiastic dog is always a pleasure to watch.
G
Guest
·I read through and haven't seen this part mentioned... But I think step number ONE is to STOP running tests and trials. My rule is that any dog who exhibits a chronic problem 2-3 times in a short period gets a long break -- maybe an entire season -- from running.
If you continue to run, you're continuing to teach the dog where he can and can't be controlled.
Some people -- although I don't think anyone here did -- will recommend training immediately prior to running or doing something prior to going to the line. And this just tends to exacerbate how well the dog understands that he can do what he wants once he's at the line.
Anyway, some more stuff that might help...
1) Come up with some creative ways to get him wound up in training. Lots of noise. Go ahead and do some HT setups if you're training for trials -- some close, wild birds with lots of noise. Instead of thinking "concepts" and "factors" on some days, think about what COULD cause him to go out of control. It may be something that looks nothing like a traditional setup. When you have fewer people, or just yourself, you may have to shorten marks, add lots of noise, throw birds in his face, throw them at strange times, use poppers instead of primers, etc. etc.
2) The last couple of articles I did in RN had some stuff that works well for dogs like him where you want some sharp, crisp control in the most exciting situations. Fast walkups are great and truck birds (where you or a helper throw a surprise bird in his face while he's airing or walking to the holding blind or line). I also mentioned "speed training" where you move at a really fast pace on simple elements, but maintain your standards for control. So you're challenging him to go OOC when YOU start moving fast. If he does, you can stop and start the whole chain of events over again.
I would recommend that you try to make training as WILD as possible so that the weekends just aren't QUITE so exciting. I have gotten to the point where I literally do not have to say sit to almost all of my dogs on a walkup. I sometimes just say it as a technicality... Because if I don't say it, I don't want to regret my dog's breaking... But I rarely actually need it.
I hope you get your problem solved. It's hard to enjoy a weekend with a dog that's so wound up, he can't handle the test/trial. I will say that the more you continue to run -- if you do -- the less likely the problem will be solved. So it may be time for a break if you haven't already considered one.
I have a dog here that I haven't run in about two years. I just might consider running him now... Not sure. I may have ruined him by running him too frequently and allowing him to go OOC too much...
-K
If you continue to run, you're continuing to teach the dog where he can and can't be controlled.
Some people -- although I don't think anyone here did -- will recommend training immediately prior to running or doing something prior to going to the line. And this just tends to exacerbate how well the dog understands that he can do what he wants once he's at the line.
Anyway, some more stuff that might help...
1) Come up with some creative ways to get him wound up in training. Lots of noise. Go ahead and do some HT setups if you're training for trials -- some close, wild birds with lots of noise. Instead of thinking "concepts" and "factors" on some days, think about what COULD cause him to go out of control. It may be something that looks nothing like a traditional setup. When you have fewer people, or just yourself, you may have to shorten marks, add lots of noise, throw birds in his face, throw them at strange times, use poppers instead of primers, etc. etc.
2) The last couple of articles I did in RN had some stuff that works well for dogs like him where you want some sharp, crisp control in the most exciting situations. Fast walkups are great and truck birds (where you or a helper throw a surprise bird in his face while he's airing or walking to the holding blind or line). I also mentioned "speed training" where you move at a really fast pace on simple elements, but maintain your standards for control. So you're challenging him to go OOC when YOU start moving fast. If he does, you can stop and start the whole chain of events over again.
I would recommend that you try to make training as WILD as possible so that the weekends just aren't QUITE so exciting. I have gotten to the point where I literally do not have to say sit to almost all of my dogs on a walkup. I sometimes just say it as a technicality... Because if I don't say it, I don't want to regret my dog's breaking... But I rarely actually need it.
I hope you get your problem solved. It's hard to enjoy a weekend with a dog that's so wound up, he can't handle the test/trial. I will say that the more you continue to run -- if you do -- the less likely the problem will be solved. So it may be time for a break if you haven't already considered one.
I have a dog here that I haven't run in about two years. I just might consider running him now... Not sure. I may have ruined him by running him too frequently and allowing him to go OOC too much...
-K
John
After reading Gun dogs post I said to my self., when did I teach him that.
Thats pretty much verbatum what I have done with dogs who behave like Indy at a test.
If you or Patty remember Mia,,she was a dog I was only supposed to put a Jr on with a couple months training and then she was to be used as a hunting dog. She was hightly excitable but since that was as far as he was going with her at the time I said OK.
That was the biggest mistake I ever made and have not done it since.
At her first JR she was steady at her 4th jr she was litterally dragging me to the line and marking standing up on 2 legs with me leaning back on her leash.
She was a very talented dog but I messed up,,, knowing by her second jr that the dog should take a hyates from tests. Well because clients don't want to hear that the dog needs to be in training another season without testing because of money issues and such we continued running. Anyway long story short her 1st master year was great except she broke often at the last bird of the last series especially if it was a flier. And she crept on every bird. I thought by now it was beyond repair for testing anyway. It was horrible
I developed a plan (almost the same as Gun dog listed)and the following season she titled MH. She actually received very few marks that spring but she watched everybody else mark.
She was put in a down between the wingers and was not allowed to move. Very difficult when your training by yourself. heeling backwards,,and all around the excitement but nothing for her
It didnt take long for her to totally relax and hang out sometimes appearing to take a snooze.
even though she crept a couple of times that final year all she immediately returned on her own just like a yo yo I tried to keep the test at least 3 weeks apart.
I guess my point would be that if a dog is collar and test wise it is possible to get a handle on it and be succesful but the regiment needs an overhaul for that particular dog.
Pete
After reading Gun dogs post I said to my self., when did I teach him that.
Thats pretty much verbatum what I have done with dogs who behave like Indy at a test.
If you or Patty remember Mia,,she was a dog I was only supposed to put a Jr on with a couple months training and then she was to be used as a hunting dog. She was hightly excitable but since that was as far as he was going with her at the time I said OK.
That was the biggest mistake I ever made and have not done it since.
At her first JR she was steady at her 4th jr she was litterally dragging me to the line and marking standing up on 2 legs with me leaning back on her leash.
She was a very talented dog but I messed up,,, knowing by her second jr that the dog should take a hyates from tests. Well because clients don't want to hear that the dog needs to be in training another season without testing because of money issues and such we continued running. Anyway long story short her 1st master year was great except she broke often at the last bird of the last series especially if it was a flier. And she crept on every bird. I thought by now it was beyond repair for testing anyway. It was horrible
I developed a plan (almost the same as Gun dog listed)and the following season she titled MH. She actually received very few marks that spring but she watched everybody else mark.
She was put in a down between the wingers and was not allowed to move. Very difficult when your training by yourself. heeling backwards,,and all around the excitement but nothing for her
It didnt take long for her to totally relax and hang out sometimes appearing to take a snooze.
even though she crept a couple of times that final year all she immediately returned on her own just like a yo yo I tried to keep the test at least 3 weeks apart.
I guess my point would be that if a dog is collar and test wise it is possible to get a handle on it and be succesful but the regiment needs an overhaul for that particular dog.
Pete
I have one of those dogs , too.
Last time I ran him he kept it together for 2 series and in the 3rd couldnt bear it any longer.
I shoulda taken him offline, but you get swept up in the moment of getting them under control(ha!)
Next time I will put the lead back on and take him off line. This is a dog running in the Open with his pro - who has no problem - I wonder why? Because he is scared of his pro and not me.
I do agree with those saying stop running the dog for a while. You may need to have intervals between trials/tests - they do get trialwise and by running them in back-to-back trials you encourage the bad behavior.
Last time I ran him he kept it together for 2 series and in the 3rd couldnt bear it any longer.
I shoulda taken him offline, but you get swept up in the moment of getting them under control(ha!)
Next time I will put the lead back on and take him off line. This is a dog running in the Open with his pro - who has no problem - I wonder why? Because he is scared of his pro and not me.
I do agree with those saying stop running the dog for a while. You may need to have intervals between trials/tests - they do get trialwise and by running them in back-to-back trials you encourage the bad behavior.
Joined
·
1,853 Posts
Our dog did the same with the pro.
I don't want to run a dog that you can run a couple of times, put them up for the rest of the season. That dog who can run only every other trial, you do about 6 per season, so that means 3 at most. Don't want that dog who you have to take off the line because they misbehave so often. Besides training fees, now you pay to train at trials too. Don't want that dog who only the pro can run. Don't want that dog that has to stay in perpetual training.
Want that dog who retains his training, and is a team player. Whole bunch more fun. Whole bunch more last series.
So, we try to get that dog,and that may mean retiring the other type.
The good news, they are out there.
I don't want to run a dog that you can run a couple of times, put them up for the rest of the season. That dog who can run only every other trial, you do about 6 per season, so that means 3 at most. Don't want that dog who you have to take off the line because they misbehave so often. Besides training fees, now you pay to train at trials too.
Don't want that dog who only the pro can run. Don't want that dog that has to stay in perpetual training. Want that dog who retains his training, and is a team player. Whole bunch more fun. Whole bunch more last series.
So, we try to get that dog,and that may mean retiring the other type.
The good news, they are out there.
Joined
·
1,365 Posts
I don't want my dogs to perform because they are scared of me...
Joined
·
777 Posts
Excellent.
There are some nice dogs that just can't handle the test/trial schedule "we" want to run.
Joined
·
249 Posts
one other thing i forgot to mention that helped. At some point to the line i would grab a live pheasant without the dog knowing. i would hold it behind my back while the marks were coming out. If he did not creep i would release the bird while standing right beside him and have somebody shoot it who was behind and to the side(who the dog did not see either). I would run him with or without the collar. If it was without then we went back a century to the trusty heeling stick. if he moved when the bird was released then it was watch the bird fly off, stick, stick, stick, and back in the truck.
Too bad. Then you wont hit the big time.
You run a dog you make your friend you wont get the potential or the performance.
Joined
·
7,657 Posts
Do you really believe that labhauler? I'm pretty friendly with my dogs and I'm sometimes pleased with their performance.
I can get fear too. Just don't want them to scared of me very often.
Little time regards,
Joined
·
8,909 Posts
John, how is it going on this? What things have you tried? What things did you come up with to work on in yard work?
/Paul
/Paul
Joined
·
911 Posts
That all depends on the method of training you use from the beginning.
Fear and respect are not the same.
Joined
·
1,853 Posts
I really hope most have moved past this type of thinking.
Trial wise is not just high, OOC, bad line manners. It can also mean that dog who will never do that water blind, who walks, no goes, freezes, etc. You can put fear of refusing into training, you can't at trial. Dog knows that.
"Big time" dogs are wonderful friends, the brave spirit and good heart that makes them successful in the field, also makes them the best friend/companion/bed dog, ever. Too bad to miss out on that.
Joined
·
1,166 Posts
Tempting as that sounds, it may be a little harsh.
John, when you figure this out, you just let me know, won't you?
Lisa
Joined
·
5,202 Posts
Does a dog really have the intellect to understand and demostrate respect or is "respect" in dogs simply fear of correction that manifests itself in the correct, trained responses?
I show up for work every morning on time and ready to go because I fear the consequences, not because I respecdt my boss. I don't cower and I'm not "afraid" of him to the point of being nervous, but I know the consequences of inadequate performance and they are unpleasant enough that I dont' care to endure them, thus I perform.
So does a dog "respect" it's trainer or does it simply know that doing what you ask is pleasant while doing what it feels like doign is very unpleasant?
If the former were true couldn't you just ask the dog to run straight lines on contest day and have it do so out of respect?
Are we really dealing with politically correct symantics here?
Joined
·
2,625 Posts
"Respect" is an overused word when it comes to relationships with our dogs. (IMO)
The type of respect that a dog has for us is not at all like the respect WE may have for the dog or for another human. Dogs are not capable of intellectualizing that type of respect.
A dog NEEDS a leader who provides for physical needs CONSISTENTLY, who provides a feeling of safety and security, who provides GUIDELINES and GUIDANCE consistently and who provides COMPANIONSHIP for the dog within those parameters. Do that and you'll have your dog's respect.
Too many people try to make a "little furry-faced child" of their dog and then expect their respect. That does nothing for the dog nor for our position as the dog's leader. (flame away if you like)
After saying that, I feel sorry for anyone who believes this:
JS
The type of respect that a dog has for us is not at all like the respect WE may have for the dog or for another human. Dogs are not capable of intellectualizing that type of respect.
A dog NEEDS a leader who provides for physical needs CONSISTENTLY, who provides a feeling of safety and security, who provides GUIDELINES and GUIDANCE consistently and who provides COMPANIONSHIP for the dog within those parameters. Do that and you'll have your dog's respect.
Too many people try to make a "little furry-faced child" of their dog and then expect their respect. That does nothing for the dog nor for our position as the dog's leader. (flame away if you like
)After saying that, I feel sorry for anyone who believes this:
I really hope you're not serious.
JS
Joined
·
9,443 Posts
Well I have to disagree with this comment - hmmmmm, Bullet is doing just fine, he sleeps in the bed when he is at home, steals the couch from Flash, loves to cuddle, would rather be petted on than fed.......nope not my friend, stupid Butthead!!
Sorry I think your logic is flawed. Bullet works for me just as well as he does his Pro, what he understands is I'm the pack leader not him. He wants to please, is biddable and is the most fun loving dog I know - he is the goofiest dog on my Pro's truck or so I have been told.....no fear driving him to work for myself, my Pro or my husband - heck he'll run for anyone, even our young friends, nephews and nieces.....I can bet you he has no fear of them....yet he is well on his way to titling despite my handling skills.
FOM
Joined
·
1,853 Posts
Rudy ( JB'S So Rude ) got almost all of her points with Dick handling. Don't believe she cared one bit who was standing next to her, or feared anything. She was well trained, wanted to do the work, and was good about trying to do it our way. ( most of the time ).
She demanded constant petting, Dick did experiment once to see who would quit first. After 3 straight hours, he did. I expected that, she has much stronger character.
Definetely big time in our hearts.
She was never trial wise. she would blatantly try to run around a pond in training, too. :lol:
Lainee's post is dead on, that KIND of dog is the key to a competitive, consistent AA dog. A little talent doesn't hurt either. And, Lainee, have seen some great dogs make some bad handlers look like they knew what they were doing, LOL
).She demanded constant petting, Dick did experiment once to see who would quit first. After 3 straight hours, he did. I expected that, she has much stronger character.
Definetely big time in our hearts.
She was never trial wise. she would blatantly try to run around a pond in training, too. :lol:
Lainee's post is dead on, that KIND of dog is the key to a competitive, consistent AA dog. A little talent doesn't hurt either. And, Lainee, have seen some great dogs make some bad handlers look like they knew what they were doing, LOL
Joined
·
8,909 Posts
Hey look, an actual dog training related thread....
/Paul
/Paul
21 - 40 of 45 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
