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Should we change National Qualifications?

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Discussion starter · #81 ·
waggontail said:
Really, :rolleyes:

Mr. Mike has earned many a good dog men and woman's respect on the w coast. I am not a big fan and do not know him personally, but he is a well rounded FT guy, and I would listen to anything he had to share.
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Didn't say his opinions did not have value

Simply said that dismissing others as "lame" or "ridiculous" does not encourage discussion

Period. End of story.
 
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#83 ·
Leave it alone or add a day. I think the economy will take care of it.

How did the idea that handles carry at the National evolve where they won't at a weekend trial? It amazed me when I went to my first National and saw that handles often get carried. I would think if you wanted to keep things moving, handles would be treated the same way they are at a weekend trial-a quick handle could be carried but not necessarily.
 
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Discussion starter · #84 ·
Melanie Foster said:
For the record, I think that is lame.

Oops, forgot we were not supposed to express our opinions on a discussion forum!
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Isn't it possible - or even desirable - to explain why you disagree with someone?

Isn't it possible - or even desirable - to not need to place a negative label on someone's opinion that is different than yours?

Doesn't a simple exchange of ideas rather than insulting the merit of those ideas ENCOURAGE discussion?

Obviously, you believe discussion means dissing someone's opinion with nothing more.

Why does that not surprise me?

Ted

 
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Discussion starter · #85 ·
ErinsEdge said:
How did the idea that handles carry at the National evolve where they won't at a weekend trial? It amazed me when I went to my first National and saw that handles often get carried. I would think if you wanted to keep things moving, handles would be treated the same way they are at a weekend trial-a quick handle could be carried but not necessarily.
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There are a lot of differences between a weekend trial and the National.

First, I think that most people recognize how very hard it is to qualify for one. In addition, when you run a National, you are typically setting aside two weeks of your life - one week for pre-National training and another for the National itself. Depending on where you live, when you add travel time, you may be taking yet another week off from work. So generally speaking, there is a reluctance to send people packing too soon.

Second, it has generally been the case that you need two mistakes to be send home. So a monster hunt or a handle or a really difficult time getting your dog in the water on a water blind alone is not enough to send you home UNLESS you make your mistake on a series where the judges are looking to cut numbers. Typically speaking, it is best to make your mistakes early, when the judges are forgiving. Later in the trial, the knives are out, and mercy is hard to find.

The key point here is that you should not just look at judges carrying handles as different at a National but also, judges carrying

- Monster hunts
- Hacky land blinds
- Water blinds where the dog barely gets in the water

Etc.

The Nationals are simply different beasts.

Third, one of the things that is unusual about a National is the sense of comraderie that exists between the competitors. At a weekend trial, there is often a sense of competition between the competitors, at the National, there is more a sense of competition between the competitors and the judges.

Finally, one of the reasons that people are discussing reducing numbers at the National is the belief that increasing numbers at the Nationals will make them more like weekend trials and less like Nationals have traditionally been.
 
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#87 · (Edited)
First, I think that most people recognize how very hard it is to qualify for one. In addition, when you run a National, you are typically setting aside two weeks of your life - one week for pre-National training and another for the National itself. Depending on where you live, when you add travel time, you may be taking yet another week off from work. So generally speaking, there is a reluctance to send people packing too soon.
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I understand all that, but the National numbers have pretty much been around 100 participants with a handful qualifying but not running for quite awhile. Why change the qualification at this point, which is already admittedly difficult, when the mindset could be skewed a little. I'm not saying a handle you're out, but participants know when their dog had a mark or not. I could see if the qualifyers were at 150, but raising the bar to me would be excluding some of the non-regular National participants from having the opportunity to have their dogs run the National. I just think it should be left alone unless the numbers get outrageous.

The key point here is that you should not just look at judges carrying handles as different at a National but also, judges carrying

- Monster hunts
- Hacky land blinds
- Water blinds where the dog barely gets in the water
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I agree, they should be all taken into consideration. I've hear stories of a national field champion that barely got wet that got carried and I consider that a major failure, but if that's the only failure they can become a NFC.

Maybe Junbe could give a more historical perspective about handles in the National.
 
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Discussion starter · #89 ·
ErinsEdge said:
I'm not saying a handle you're out, but participants know when their dog had a mark or not. I could see if the qualifyers were at 150, but raising the bar to me would be excluding some of the non-regular National participants from having the opportunity to have their dogs run the National. I just think it should be left alone unless the numbers get outrageous.
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Just some points for thought

First, when do the numbers become "outrageous"?
What makes a certain number of dogs "outrageous"?
To put it another way, what are the criteria - in your opinion - for changing the qualification standard?

Second, if you are taking the position that a National should be like a weekend trial, does that mean that:

- Handles get dropped
- Monster hunts get dropped
- Hacky land blinds get dropped
- Marginal water blinds get dropped

The point is this, it is not just whether you bring back a "handle" but whether you bring back any dog with any significant mistake

For example, this year's first series had about 40% handle rate. Add monster hunts, and maybe you get to a 60% failure rate. Is that what the criteria should be.

Understand, I don't have a position on this subject - yet.

On the one hand, I see the desirability of maintaining consistency in National qualification

On the other hand, I see the desirability of maintaining the National Experience (it really is something far different from a weekend trial)

I believe that - at some point - increasing numbers result in a diminished experience.

Are we there? I don't know
If we were, should we change? I don't know

I was interested in hearing what other people had to say, which is why I posted this thread

Ted
 
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Discussion starter · #90 ·
ErinsEdge said:
I'm not saying a handle you're out, but participants know when their dog had a mark or not. I could see if the qualifyers were at 150, but raising the bar to me would be excluding some of the non-regular National participants from having the opportunity to have their dogs run the National. I just think it should be left alone unless the numbers get outrageous.
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Oh, and by the way, there were 155 qualifiers for the 2008 National Amateur

And over 120 of them came to Stowe, which for many was the far side of the world.
 
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#92 ·
Second, if you are taking the position that a National should be like a weekend trial, does that mean that:

- Handles get dropped
- Monster hunts get dropped
- Hacky land blinds get dropped
- Marginal water blinds get dropped
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I am not taking that position. I am not for making it that black and white. I do not have aspirations, but I do know people that do aspire to run the National. As far as the National Amateur, the way I would view it would be since it requires more points to make an AFC than FC, if the numbers continue to rise at that rate, then requiring more points to qualify would be appropriate. If you raise the bar for the National (Open), then you would possibly increase the participants at the weekend test, which you all want to avoid, because those that qualify, usually do not continue to be run in order to qualify more dogs on the truck.
 
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#93 ·
Golddogs said:
1 win and 4 placements in 7 events or 1 win and 6 placements in however many attempts.

Helped reduce Master National #'s :)
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You got to be kidding?????? :confused: Might as well quit now....

FOM
 
#94 ·
Golddogs said:
1 win and 4 placements in 7 events or 1 win and 6 placements in however many attempts.

Helped reduce Master National #'s :)
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You've confused HT and FT's....if you win a HT then you've really done something....

/Paul
 
Discussion starter · #98 ·
ErinsEdge said:
I am not taking that position. I am not for making it that black and white. I do not have aspirations, but I do know people that do aspire to run the National. As far as the National Amateur, the way I would view it would be since it requires more points to make an AFC than FC, if the numbers continue to rise at that rate, then requiring more points to qualify would be appropriate. If you raise the bar for the National (Open), then you would possibly increase the participants at the weekend test, which you all want to avoid, because those that qualify, usually do not continue to be run in order to qualify more dogs on the truck.
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Nancy

You are not addressing one of the underlying questions - should we change the criteria for the Nationals.

And I am not sure what your criteria are for changing - or not changing

You seem to be saying no to the National Open - and yet, you are willing to change the criteria for the National Amateur. What's the difference - is it simply that it takes 15 points to get an AFC? But, of course, you can get an AFC with 10 Open points and an amateur handling. So what is the distinction?

Why does it make a difference to you how many dogs are running in the Open or Amateur on the weekend?

Does size make a difference in the quality of experience? (And should we therefore seek to decrease size?)

Is it important that we give more people an opportunity to qualify?(And if criteria remain the same, more people will sit out?)

My observation is different than yours, I would say that usually people continue to run their dogs after they are qualified and that they may sit out one or two trials just before the National (whether National Open or National Amateur)
 
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