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Tim Carrion

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
There are several rules regarding a random draw, running order, rotation, etc but do they REALLY apply in the Open?

For the weekend of 12/05/08 two of the three FTs in the southeast will have an Open where over 33% of the entry will have the same handler.
There will be need to be a non-random draw to place a single handler every 3 in the program and as series go by that order will probably go by the wayside. All in the stake that is suppose to take the highest priority and receive our greatest resources.

Best wishes to Marshalls and Judges,

Tim
 
#2 ·
The rules apply and should be followed if possible in your case probably wont be in the 2nd 3rd and 4th series. Might have to wave the honor. Pro with 33% of the dogs should be prepared to work,and have help available to air dogs and shuttle dogs to the holding blinds and if he has dogs in the minor stakes he should scratch them or have somebody else run them. A good mechanics and a good marshal will get it done.
 
#3 ·
I'm not a field trial person. However, it seems to me that the order of the draw applies to the dogs, not the handler. Could you not list the handler every 3rd or 4th dog and then draw the names of the dogs. "We're up to 24 and drawing for Joe Smith....the dog is "Ace'".

All that would be reqired is two hats, one for Joe Smith and one for everybody else.

Another way to handle it is to slot poor Joe every 3rd or 4th slot and then start the draw. Every one of Joe's that is drawn goes into his next slot. Using this method, Joe may be up to dog 30 where the next non-Joe dog is going to be #14.

It can be handled so that the goals of a random draw are met.

Eric
 
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#4 ·
Eric Johnson said:
I'm not a field trial person. However, it seems to me that the order of the draw applies to the dogs, not the handler. Could you not list the handler every 3rd or 4th dog and then draw the names of the dogs. "We're up to 24 and drawing for Joe Smith....the dog is "Ace'".

All that would be reqired is two hats, one for Joe Smith and one for everybody else.

Another way to handle it is to slot poor Joe every 3rd or 4th slot and then start the draw. Every one of Joe's that is drawn goes into his next slot. Using this method, Joe may be up to dog 30 where the next non-Joe dog is going to be #14.

It can be handled so that the goals of a random draw are met.

Eric
Click to expand...
Our draw randomizes Joe's dogs, within Joe's list of dogs, then applies them randomly to the entire draw with spacing being considered.

The person who gets screwed out of a fair running order is the 1 or 2 dog guy running the minor stakes where over half of the dogs are handled by pros that are also handling open dogs.

I'm judging a 36 dog, Friday start, Qual in a couple weeks where half of the dogs are handled by pros. Where do you think those pros will be on Friday morning and how well do you think that running order will be followed? The result will likely be an amateur running first every series and then the amateurs and judges sitting around waiting for pros from the Open.... making what could be a quality 1 day qualifying a 1.5 day event, and probably causing a few people a hotel stay.

Ed is starting to make sense regards,

SM
 
#5 ·
I was simply responding to the desire to have some spacing between Joe's dogs. I realize that you can do it completely randomly (as you do). In the Open, I'd think you want dogs in an interval between Joe's, not for his benefit but to keep things moving. You can run one dog in much of a series while he gets one ready. At the end of the day, you may save the time it takes to run 5-6 dogs....maybe more.

I was simply showing how you could do it with hats and slips of paper. Obviously you can do it better by computer as you can even define parameters and try various "draws" until you get one that is fair to one and fair to all.

Eric
 
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#6 ·
O/H, Shayne, makes the judges/ amateur handlers/ workers life a whole lot better. And, at my age and burned out level, that is of interest to me. :)

It's important to run the open in order as much as possible, it's the stake with championship points. Luck of the draw can be critical, ask some handlers that just ran the national.
 
#7 ·
Shayne Mehringer said:
I'm judging a 36 dog, Friday start, Qual in a couple weeks where half of the dogs are handled by pros.

Ed is starting to make sense regards,

SM
Click to expand...
I always make sense it's just that it sometimes take you awhile to realize it.

Actually only 11 or 12 dogs are run by Amateurs so that means 2/3 of the field are pro handled
 
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#8 ·
Tulsa Slim said:
and if he has dogs in the minor stakes he should scratch them or have somebody else run them. A good mechanics and a good marshal will get it done.
Click to expand...
Asking a pro to scratch dogs... is that really a fair option? You are taking money from that handler (handling fees ect). If the higher stakes take priority then the derby and Q will have to wait on him...its part of the deal. Everyone wants things to run smoothly but it is what it is. They will be there as soon as they can. I have never seen a judge or club have a problem with this.
 
#10 ·
EdA said:
I always make sense it's just that it sometimes take you awhile to realize it.

Actually only 11 or 12 dogs are run by Amateurs so that means 2/3 of the field are pro handled
Click to expand...

Good one Doc....
 
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#11 ·
The Field Trial Committee should talk to the judges of all stakes in advance about allowing pros to leave the Open and handlers to leave the Am to run the minor stakes. The Marshals should also have some way to communicate with each other.

Watopa Retriever Club does an excellent job of shuffling Open handlers to the minor stake. A Club member or two stand by at the Open and shuffle the pro/ & one or two dogs (in Club member's truck) to the minor stake, leaving the pro's rig and rest of the dogs parked at the Open. When the pro/dog arrives at the D/Q, the Marshal knows to get them run as soon as practically possible and the Club member takes them back to the Open. The Head Marshal coordinates this with his/her Stakes' Marshals in advance.

At our last trial, the Open and D/Q grounds were about 4 miles apart and it worked well. I suppose if you have a long distance between grounds this might not be practical.

The Q judges ran their land marks and a land blind together. Running the land blind right away helped to save time and meant the Q judges weren't waiting on pros to finish the land blind. If the Q judges have their water blind set up, sometimes the pro who runs the land blind towards the end will stay around and run the water blind right away.

Another option is to start the Open at 9 a.m. and the Q/D at 8 a.m. and request that all/some pros go to the Q/D to run b4 coming to the Open. The Open has 3 days to finish--even if entry numbers are large, and often the Open doesn't get started until 9 a.m. anyway.
 
#12 ·
Tulsa Slim said:
now we need an OH derby;).
Click to expand...
I'm on board with that, but, careful, you will be accused of being afraid to face all those big, bad, pros. Their precision handling skills on doubles will beat you out every time. :rolleyes:

As a judge or club member, I do have a problem waiting a long time for pros running 20+ open dogs, making minor stakes wait. You betcha I have a problem with that, makes me really, really, cranky and mean. :D

Ann, I hear you, but that is still going to mess up the running order in the open, if you have big pro trucks, running every 3 or 4 dogs. Starting the minor stake earlier might work, depending if you have a reasonable size open, good weather, and a strong chair to force the pros over there.
 
#13 ·
I've attempted to start the Derby (Friday) 30-60 mins before the Open at our last few trials.... Open pros running Derby dogs are to report to the Derby first. It worked a couple of times. Our premium states that those pros are to report to the derby first. If the derby is ready to run them, great, if not they can go to the Open IF the Open is ready for them.

FWIW.... I prefer the Qual on Saturday as it gives amateurs a better opportunity to make the trial. The Qualifying is the conduit to new people in our sport, be it brand new or from hunt tests.

SM
 
#14 · (Edited)
cakaiser said:
Ann, I hear you, but that is still going to mess up the running order in the open, if you have big pro trucks, running every 3 or 4 dogs. Starting the minor stake earlier might work, depending if you have a reasonable size open, good weather, and a strong chair to force the pros over there.
Click to expand...
It may mean that the Open doesn't run in perfect order. We do have a strong Head Marshal who clears this with judges and lets the Marshals know in advance how this will work--and it works well, and he manages it throughout the wkend.

The Open judges accept running somewhat out of order, and things seem to move right along. At Watopa's fall trial, the Q has to keep moving because we lose our daylight so early. Even though the Q can run over to the next day, it sure is preferable to finish it in one day if at all possible to help with workers and grounds for the other stakes. And, the non-pros in the minor stakes sure appreciate finishing in one day so they don't have to find a hotel room and pay for a meal out.

Some clubs in this area also run the Q on Sat/Derby on Fri to make the Q more accessible to folks who have Master Hunter dogs and others who'd like to give field trial a try (like Shayne's post says). One Field Trial Club has an OH Qualifying. Others that offer AKC Hunting Tests are offering an OH Qualifying as part of their HTests.
 
#16 ·
O/H or not, why would one want to JAM a 36 dog Q into 1 day :confused:
Just donating an entry fee to the cause does not attract new blood.
Let everyone play till the water blind..................Then tighten it up a little.

The land marks @ 6 min/dog actual running time should take 5 hours alone. Be generous with your callbacks and you have a land blind that is in the high twenties. Put enough/some meat in the blind and it should/will take a while to run...................................

A day and a half regards.

john


john
 
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#17 ·
Once upon a time I would judge OPENS and when I did my rotation it was Ledford, Lardy, Farmer- sometimes the # was gone, but when those people come with 70% of the field I don't care since the trial has cost me $1000 and the pro is making all his expenses and handling fee-roughly $100 per dog . I threw birds for Rex for 22 years and Andy Attar for 4 years , I'll be damned if I am going to be a Pro's "House *****". Does anyone realize that all these pros who we work for every weekend-that only 4 are members of the Labrador Retriever Club? Why? They make their living off Labrador dogs, why can't they afford $25 a year? This weekend I have 59 Open dogs and 43 are run by pros whose owners will be home by the toasty fire and on friday will be on the internet to find how Popsicaltheir "Great Bitch" did on the 1st series-so not only does the owner not show or help,but they expect their pro to call them and talk to them while that pro should be getting another dog.Oh, Lanse would you run Eva? What, I have 25 dogs before I am supposed to run according to the draw! Yes, but Peter Pro and Tommy Taker have somany dogs and are parked so far away. How about Sam Sly? Oh, he has to go to the Qualifying and he can't afford to bring help as he doesn't know how to pad the feathers on next month's training bill. No- like Charlotte I too after putting on trials for 44 years am getting fed up with providing a venue for pros to make profits off my labor. Now am I off the wall? YES. However, watch next weekend on the internet and see how many stay at home owners are asking "any news at---" or hooray for Slinky- he jammed the Qual and all before his 8th birthday, you should be sooo proud Bill! This weekend the "outside help" will be Pros Charlie Moody, Keith Farmer(these 2 are NOT users) Steve O'Connell, Stan Chiras, Lewis Carnes, the remaining people will be Jeff& Paula Horsley(Pros and hard working members) and the usual bunch of slobs like myself. A pro who is instrumental is Dan Devos and since he has only entered 2 dogs perhaps he will be able to shuttle dogs for Hugh Arthur/Jason Baker so they can take their phone calls. This is called "Professional courtesy" and since Dan is a Canadian perhaps this is covered by NAFTA. When it is all done we will have stiff doubles or hits and get ready to repeat the same in March.
 
#19 ·
To me, the rules are just fine. The AA Stakes are most important and "SHOULD BE ALLOTED MORE TIME"!!!!!!

"Now Pro, you have more time, now get to the Qual and run."

I know it will work because A. Nelson Sills did it at the PRTA. I was judging the Minor stakes with Pert Wunderlich and we never had to wait on ONE dog.

Jerry
 
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