needing canine cancer advice

Brad Slaybaugh · Dec 15, 2008

Well this sucks to try to start the story so I'll just tell it.

I noticed an out-of-place tuft of hair on my 5 yo lab, Bo's left rear ankle, I initially thought it was a tick, but it wasn't. Each day it got a little larger, but I couldn't find a wound. Over the course of about a month it grew to the size of a golf ball. I had began giving him baytril with no real results ( still thinking maybe snake or spider bite). Trip to the vet...new antibiotic, size of growth had stabilized by now, no smaller or larger, but had an opened wound now, after a couple weeks on the new drugs, we went back...scheduled a surgery for the next week early Dec. After the vet finished, he said he didn't like what he found and would be surprised if it wasn't a tumor. The results of the biopsy are below.

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Biopsy

Microscopic description: Subcutaneous mass lateral left carpus: These sections contain an infiltrative neoplastic mass characterized by dense proliferation of fusiform to ovoid cells arranged in interwoven bundles and whorls associated with a fibrous stroma. In some areas, the tumor is arranged in nest and whorls resembling nerve bundles. There is nuclear and cellular pleomorphism and some mitotic figures. Mitotic figures vary from 1-5/10 hpf. Scattered binucleated-multinucleated tumor cells are also evident.

Microscopic Findings: Subcutaneous mass lateral left carpus: Neurofibrosarcoma (peripheral nerve sheath tumor) grade II

Comment: Neurofibrosarcomas are locally infiltrative and often recur after surgical excision, but metastasis is rarely encountered. Tumor cells are seen in the borders of the specimen examined. The prognosis is guarded.
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We get the stitches out tomorrow, and I think after reading all I can find on the Internet, we'll to do a chest/lung x-ray also to try to find if it's spread.

This is new ground for me, I'm meeting with an oncologist this week hopefully (turns out they are pretty busy folks, although I feel like my buddy is the only one in the world with cancer) I've pretty much decided on amputating, and mainly seeing the oncologist to find out about radiation and Chemo,as well as hopefully a more thorough prognosis. I looked at some of the other threads as well as the pics of other amputees, and the story about the Kress's, Austin, and can only pray for at least this good of an ending.

But anyway, if any of you have any advice on this...especially this type of cancer, please pass it on. The uncertainty seems to be the worst part for now, I need a crystal ball so I know the next step.

Thanks
Brad

Vicky Trainor · Dec 15, 2008

Brad,

I don't have that crystal ball you need so badly....I wish I did.

But, I can offer you success stories of dogs I have had personal experience with that are amputees. They don't realize after losing a limb that they are "handicapped". They seem to quickly learn to adjust their stance to accomodate the new distribution of weight.

One dog in particular just came to mind. One of my dear clients had to make the difficult decision to have his 4 yr old BLM's front leg amputated. Po is a big boy...tall and muscular....and all GO! It broke Maurice's heart to make the decision, but the alternative of losing his boy wasn't an option he could face. After the surgery, Maurice would call me to give me updates on how Po was handling the recovery. There were ups and downs, but overall things were progressing. About 6 or 7 months post surgery, I got a call from Maurice that he and his family had to go out of town and could I board the dogs for him. I, of course, said yes and found myself worrying a bit about Po being in the kennel for a week. When they arrived, Po came bounding over to me to get some loving and then did his normal run around the yard. As we got to the kennel, I voiced my concerns to Maurice about having Po in the kennel on concrete for a week. We decided I would try Po in the kennel and if there was any problems, I would bring him in the house with us.

So much for my worrying! Po not only did well in the kennel, but he would manage to jump about 5 ft high while waiting for his food bowl! It would scare me .... but he didn't seem to even notice my concern!

So, if you have to make the decision for amputation, it will bring tears to your eyes and a heaviness in your heart....but your boy will adjust and be able to have a full life. I have hunted with a 3 legged dog and I have judged a couple of 3 legged dogs...they don't let it bother them like it does a human!

Good thoughts and prayers coming your and Bo's way!

HuntinDawg · Dec 15, 2008

Dukdawg said:
Comment: Neurofibrosarcomas are locally infiltrative and often recur after surgical excision, but metastasis is rarely encountered.

Man I'm sorry your dog has to deal with this at all, but isn't this comment that metastasis is rarely encountered a good thing? Isn't that the same thing as saying it probably hasn't/won't spread although it might reoccur in the same place?

I know you wouldn't be thinking amputation if you weren't reading somewhere that it was the best course of action for this type of tumor, but that wouldn't have been my first thought after reading that comment from your original post. Maybe this isn't necessary? Hopefully after meeting with the oncologist you will have a clear and definite idea about what you should do.

I'm just basing my comment on what you wrote. I have no experience with this and I am certainly not a vet.

Good luck to you and your dog.

Brad Slaybaugh · Dec 15, 2008

HuntinDawg said:
Man I'm sorry your dog has to deal with this at all, but isn't this comment that metastasis is rarely encountered a good thing? Isn't that the same thing as saying it probably hasn't/won't spread although it might reoccur in the same place?

HuntinDawg, yes your right, on both counts, that it isn't AS likely to spread, and from what I've read - If it does reccur, the chances of it spreading the second time around are greater. I've spent hours thinking about this and while I'll for sure see what the oncologost has to say... I figure if it hasn't spread already, and I do the Amputation, then if I does come back, I'll know I did all I could to prevent it, rather than gamble that it won't come back and then if it does, and if it spreads, then I'll be cussing myself for not having amputated.

Although this really stinks, I'm not that worried about amputating, like Vicki said, they adjust well to it, there use to be a lab that chased my school bus as a kid....even though he didn't learn the first time the bus hit him, he was as quick on 3 legs as he was on four.

And yes I'm also anxious to meet with the oncologist, just for the learning and hopefully some answers.

ErinsEdge · Dec 15, 2008

I'm sorry you are going through this. I would be cautious with looking at amputation right away. I know a field champion that recently had a tumor removed from his leg. I don't know if it was the same kind as yours but they said the same thing-it would come back but he would have to have his leg amputated for the pain as it would become more invasive in his leg. They didn't say there was a hurry so the amputation was scheduled in several months. He may have had it removed the second time. Everyone was sad for him especially his pro. When he went in it had resolved itself and his leg didn't have to be amputated. I may not have the story exactly straight (and if someone knows the story they can add to it) but that's the ending.

Patrick Johndrow · Dec 15, 2008

I have had two dogs (one lab, one golden) with mass cell tumors. The tumors on both dogs were surgically removed…one dog had the tumor reoccur in the same spot two years later and removed that as well. Both dogs (15 years and 8 years) are still thriving with out signs of cancer

Brad Slaybaugh · Dec 15, 2008

Erin and Patrick,

I agree and hope this is how things work out,

I'm planning on waiting until I speak with the oncologist, then come up with a game plan. I was told there is no hurry to amputate, and may well wait until after hunting season, or longer, but at the same time...trying to come to terms with the possibility. Trying to make sense of all the terms and lingo, as well as the percentages of recovery, different stages and grades is confusing. As we go thru this...hopefully this thread will become an education for anyone who might face this in the future. I've been watching him with an extra careful eye since this has happened, he's been whining and not eating much over the last couple days and I was sure this meant the worst. Then my wife reminded me this morning...one of my females is in the hot part of her heat cycle and Bo always acts like this around that time.

So he's actually being perfectly normal, I'm the one who's flipping out.

Brad

mdegra · Dec 15, 2008

I am so sorry that your in this position. It's terrible. My oldest lab had a mast cell tumor, which has not recurred, but I'm watching him like a hawk. We deal with a few peripheral nerve sheath tumors, but rarely, since they aren't very common in people unless they have certain syndromes. The current data from a neurosurg journal quotes an 80% 10 year survival in kids who have complete resection of the tumor (no amputation) with clear margins. Many also recommend post-op radiation therapy, especially if the margins still show tumor. Not too much data on chemotherapy.
I think you're doing the right thing in waiting to talk to the oncologist to make your decision. I think since his lesion is around his ankle (far from his body), if it was my dog I would have an extensive local resection with microscopically proven clear margins, and then do a round or two of radiation therapy. If it does come back, you would have to make your decision based on what it looked like then.
Good luck with the oncologist. And don't be afraid to get a second opinion, regardless of what the oncologist says. You can't be faulted for having the most information possible to make a decision on limb salvage.

Brad Slaybaugh · Dec 15, 2008

mdegra said:
I am so sorry that your in this position. It's terrible. My oldest lab had a mast cell tumor, which has not recurred, but I'm watching him like a hawk. We deal with a few peripheral nerve sheath tumors, but rarely, since they aren't very common in people unless they have certain syndromes. The current data from a neurosurg journal quotes an 80% 10 year survival in kids who have complete resection of the tumor (no amputation) with clear margins. Many also recommend post-op radiation therapy, especially if the margins still show tumor. Not too much data on chemotherapy.
I think you're doing the right thing in waiting to talk to the oncologist to make your decision. I think since his lesion is around his ankle (far from his body), if it was my dog I would have an extensive local resection with microscopically proven clear margins, and then do a round or two of radiation therapy. If it does come back, you would have to make your decision based on what it looked like then.
Good luck with the oncologist. And don't be afraid to get a second opinion, regardless of what the oncologist says. You can't be faulted for having the most information possible to make a decision on limb salvage.

Thanks for the input, the margins are one of my questions, how is it determined if they are clear? The vet said the chances that he got all of it are slim although he cut and scraped and whatever else he could do.

Also, knowing that he already has cancer, would doing blood test at this point give me any more information?

Also, the fact that you mention children...I wasn't very long into this before I got a reality check, most of the articles I could find dealt with kids having this type of cancer. My dog having this really stinks, but I would rather deal with this any day than hearing of any child having to deal with it.......kinda helped keep things in perspective.

HuntinDawg · Dec 15, 2008

Dukdawg said:
HuntinDawg, yes your right, on both counts, that it isn't AS likely to spread, and from what I've read - If it does reccur, the chances of it spreading the second time around are greater. I've spent hours thinking about this and while I'll for sure see what the oncologost has to say... I figure if it hasn't spread already, and I do the Amputation, then if I does come back, I'll know I did all I could to prevent it, rather than gamble that it won't come back and then if it does, and if it spreads, then I'll be cussing myself for not having amputated.

Although this really stinks, I'm not that worried about amputating, like Vicki said, they adjust well to it, there use to be a lab that chased my school bus as a kid....even though he didn't learn the first time the bus hit him, he was as quick on 3 legs as he was on four.

And yes I'm also anxious to meet with the oncologist, just for the learning and hopefully some answers.

I hope you understand that I was not being critical. I cannot say what I would do if it were my dog. I am sure that amputation is not something that you would do as a knee jerk reaction. I am sure you have thought this through. This is your decision to make and you have to do what you think is right. When it is a judgement call such as this one, nobody can say what is right for your dog except you. Hopefully it will be clearer after you talk to the oncologist.

I hope this turns out well for you and your dog.

Brad Slaybaugh · Dec 15, 2008

HuntinDawg said:
I hope you understand that I was not being critical.

I didn't think that at all, sorry if I implied that. I appreciate all the comments, sometimes it's difficult to find/relay the right words in replying but thanks for posting.

Brad

2tall · Dec 15, 2008

Brad, I lost my old friend to mast cell cancer. But the tumor was on his eyelid, so the margins were not "clear" after surgery. It came back within 2 weeks, an extremely aggressive tumor, and I was considering having the eye taken. Unfortunately he went down too fast to consider this.

I have a friend with a Rottie that developed a mast cell on his hind leg 4 years ago. It (the tumor only) was removed and now at 15 years old, the dog looks like a 9 year old and is very active and healthy.

I hope the very best for you and your dog. I know just how you feel when you said that it was like your dog was the only one in the world dealing with this. It is the only one in YOUR world. Prayers sent.

JusticeDog · Dec 15, 2008

I'm very sorry you're going through this...

Someone asked about the margins, and the pathology report indicates that the margins weren't clear. Sometimes depending on the area, it's difficult for a vet to clear the margins. The oncologist will be able to tell you if that can clear them to a greater degree. With that being said, radiation might be able to knock what is left back, without amputation. I think they will tell you that there's no hurry on it. Since you'll be keeping a watchful eye, you can always make that decision down the road. And, these dogs do adapt so well.

Hug your dog for me today... Prayers from the midwest for a good outcome.

1st retriever · Dec 15, 2008

I am sorry you are going through this. My aunt had a pitbull that kept getting tumors and they kept removing them. They did this for quite a few years. I don't know the circumstances of if radiation was even offered to them but he had two or three tumors removed at a time and he lived for quite a few years with the cancer. Not sure if this helps at all but this has been my experience. Maybe it will give some form of insight!

Judy Chute · Dec 15, 2008

Brad...and everyone.. Thanks for sharing all this information. Better to know than not...

I posted to you and "Bo" on Shayne's thread, Brad...

The Forum shares the good and the bad..."community"..

Judy

Brad Slaybaugh · Dec 15, 2008

Judy Chute said:
Brad...and everyone.. Thanks for sharing all this information. Better to know than not...

I posted to you and "Bo" on Shayne's thread, Brad...

The Forum shares the good and the bad..."community"..

Judy

AMEN...yes it does

David Barrow · Dec 15, 2008

Darn Bud,

Sorry to hear that. As you know "Meg" has had one operation for a rare form of Ovarian Cancer, and we now suspect it has spread. We have decided to try to keep the pain to a minimum and not let her suffer too much, train/trial when she feels like it, but most importantly take her Hunting as much as possible. I do not know much about treatment, but I am sure folks on here can give you some good advice, I do know I have run with and judged some nice three legged dogs that seem to not notice they only had three legs. You, Bo, and the girls are in my prayers.

David

mdegra · Dec 15, 2008

JusticeDog is right. The margins are checked by the pathologist while they are examining the tissue. Depending on the type of tumor, certain widths of margins are recommended. The margins are usually not clear on incisional biopsies (piece of tissue cut out for diagnosis). But these biopsies are done to diagnose the problem and then for surgical planning. Excision of tumors is a very involved process which requires lots of forethought. There are several tumors common in dogs, such as mast cell tumors, histiocytomas, etc, and they all react/behave/progress differently. Peripheral nerve malignancies like neurofibrosarcs are less likely to throw mets, and more likely to respond to wide excision of the affected area (with microscopic confirmation of clear margins), with supplemental radiation than others. My dog's mast cell tumor was treated with local excision, and post op chemo with prednisone. Mast cells commonly recur. Basically, you have to weigh the data (tumor type, size, high grade (bad)/low grade (better), and whether it's localized/metastatic)) to determine your treatment options.
Good luck with everything. Keep a positive outlook, because this could be worse. My dogs are like my kids, and I worry about them like they're my kids. It's very hard to know that something's wrong with them that you can't fix yourself. But there are guys that can, and they'll take care of your pup.

kmcampbeky · Dec 15, 2008

Start your dog on high doses of vitamin C, my best bud, Dexter ended up dying from cancer however the vitamin C did help a lot and extend his life by a year or so, he had a huge tumor on the roof of his mouth that receded, however in the end it did migrate to other portions of his body at which point we decided that the best option was to put him to sleep. If I remember right we were giving him two 1500 mg caps twice a day, however I'll check with my wife tonight who will remember. Best wishes and thoughts.

splashdash · Dec 16, 2008

Our 11 year old lab had a neurofibrosarcoma near a front foot about 7 years ago, the pathology report indicated clear margins and there hasn't been any reoccurrance. Our six year old golden had a fibrosarcoma that didn't have clear margins from the initial surgery, but did a second surgery and took a very large area of surrounding tissue to achieve clear margins and so far are beating the statistical odds for reoccurrence. Good luck on your pup.

needing canine cancer advice

Brad Slaybaugh

Vicky Trainor

HuntinDawg

Brad Slaybaugh

ErinsEdge

Patrick Johndrow

Brad Slaybaugh

mdegra

Brad Slaybaugh

HuntinDawg

Brad Slaybaugh

2tall

JusticeDog

1st retriever

Judy Chute

Brad Slaybaugh

David Barrow

mdegra

kmcampbeky

splashdash

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