knowledable trainers driven away

john fallon · Dec 25, 2008

That "they" are good trainers, as well as those who never wash out dogs and get them as far as humanly possible are is not inconsistent .

john

Ted Shih · Dec 25, 2008

john fallon said:
That "they" are good trainers, as well as those who never wash out dogs and get them as far as humanly possible are is not inconsistent .

john

That works if that is what you originally said.

Which, of course, it was not.

Don't you ever get tired of saying things that you cannot defend?

john fallon · Dec 25, 2008

Since a comparison was never part of the original statement ,your analogy, which we will call option A) is incongruent ....I'll take option B) that that is what I meant by what I said

john

Hoytman · Dec 25, 2008

My own earlier post proves my point. No one pays any attention to a nobody, hence no responses to my post. Good. That means I was right about one thing at least, and it's why even I only pay attention to those "big names". LOL! Merry Christmas gang!

Pete · Dec 25, 2008

I think 95percent (I made that number up) of the questions here can be answered by most. There are a ton of knowlegable people here .
Most of the questions do not require a top 10 open dog trainer to respond to,, unless you really want to hear the tecnical side of a basics through advanced. in which the internet has proven not to be the place to discuss things in debpth.
For that you need voice inflection,facial responce.hand gestures and specimans on the ground to point out exactly what you have described so you can see what those words refer to.
Hey a seminar,,,, good idea.

There are a ton of other subjects I find very enlightening here besides dog training and there are a ton of people that are excelent at it.
Vet stuff, welping,rehab for dog injuries,food,ect.ect.

You know,,,,a person can write many volumes of the "sit" command and its applications,break downs,promotions and its influences on other desired behaviors but we would all fall asleep.
Paul( gundog 2002) just gave an excelent summery in getting an older cronic breaker to steady up. Yet I haven't seen him win many nationals. How could that be.

Do you trust his advice? I do.

If you qualified for the nationals then I think you want to seek someone with national experience. Well let me take that back.
All you history buffs Correct me if I'm wrong,,but Did Rex Carr ever run a National,?,,
I would defininely take his advice.

Sound training is sound training no matter who mouth it comes from.
It doesn't matter who sings the song as long as the song gets sung. If you can stay in tune that is.
Pete

john fallon · Dec 25, 2008

I think 95percent (I made that number up) of the questions here can be answered by most. There are a ton of knowlegable people here .

Bingo we have a winner..

Now as to the other 5% lets start a list of questions for which only Experts know and are qualified to give an answer.

1) Explain to us in detail how Indirect Pressure works.

2)On a series of collar corrections explain how one, with the collar,. (Use the symbols P+/- R+/-)are actually using Operant and/or Classic Conditioning .Or if not that, in generally excepted training terminology............what are you doing

3)Give us some examples of uses for Secondary Positive or Negative Reinforcement in field training .
The use of a quick second Whistle to get the required response would be an example of the type of thing to address.

4) Fill in the blank

5) Fill in the blank

Good post Pete

john

Gun_Dog2002 · Dec 25, 2008

john fallon said:
Bingo we have a winner..

Now as to the other 5% lets start a list of questions for which only Experts know and are qualified to give an answer.

1) Explain to us in detail how Indirect Pressure works.

2)On a series of collar corrections explain how one, with the collar,. (Use the symbols P+/- n+/-)are actually using Operant and/or Classic Conditioning .Or if not that, in generally excepted training terminology............what are you doing

3)Give us some examples of uses for Secondary Positive or Negative Reinforcement in field training .
The use of a quick second Whistle to get the required response would be an example of the type of thing to address.

Good post Pete

john

I'll give you answers, since you felt it necessary to PM me and state that I NEVER (there's another one for you Ted) offer assistance.

1. Quote “Indirect pressure is contrary to how humans think, I’m not sure it can be fully explained.” – Mike Lardy – Advanced Seminar

2. To help answer this one must understand the 4 pieces to operant conditioning. Clearly you don’t understand the difference between Operant and Classical Conditioning or you would not have linked them together with “and/or”.

Operant Conditioning.
Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)

Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)

Something Bad can start or be presented, so behavior decreases = Positive Punishment (P+)

Something Bad can end or be taken away, so behavior increases = Negative Reinforcement (R-)

With this in mind, the collar does not fit for R+.
P- = One can use the collar improperly and cold burn a dog for running around out of control. Bark collars also are based on P-
P+ = Indirect pressure on sit whistle.
R- = Direct pressure on a sit whistle.

Classical Conditioning – Most commonly used with clicker training. You can use the tone aspect of the collar in much the same way as a clicker.

3. Again John you have clearly showed you do not understand Secondary Positive. Secondary Positive is something the dog has to learn to like. A second whistle is not an example of Secondary Positive. Clicker training is a great example. Dogs don’t necessarily like the clicker, but if you chain it with food at first then remove the food, they have learned to like the clicker.
Negative Reinforcment is removing the bad thing upon the desired good thing. FF is a great example of negative reinforcement.

Now, do you feel like a better dog training now that I have discussed this stuff? How did it help you John? Frankly if you want to talk about this stuff I suggest you visit the Victoria Stilwel forums, they love to discuss this, you’ll fit right in….

/Paul

Pete · Dec 25, 2008

Now John, No tickleing

I think the last time things got technical we had a free for all of "yes it is",,,"no it isn't" and it got difficult to adress all the different responses,,,
I think there were a pile of dead horse pictures in that thread

Or my memory might be fading.

In question #1
You must first prepare the dog for its use,,if indeed one can expect the proper response and attitude.

I will take a behavioral perspective,,not a retriever training perspective

It can be conditioned through neg re inforcement or neg. punishment. Depending on method you use to originally proof the dog will deturmine the phycological response to its use. Both work by the way.
But one or the other can limit or advance its use,,depending on the skill of the trainer.

Also it can be used on other commands besides "sit" where I think its most commonly used in retrieverdom. Most use it in conjunction to a refusal of some sort of trained behavior gone a-rye. example/Cast refusals

Some inadvertantly use it as punishment
Some use it inadvertanly to correct
Some use it inadvertantly as force

I say this because how it originally is conditioned will deturmine in the dogs mind how it is taken. Thus revieling its effectiveness in a given situation.
which can be seen by attiude and response. And also did it carry on to the next parralell set up.

Depending if the dog learns ,stays the same or regresses will tell you many things about the dog or the trainer.

Well I know I din't explain much,,,,probably left more questions with more to consider so I'll leave some for people with more understanding and those inspired to take your bait

Maby this should be a start to a new thread and a new year.

Merry Christmas
Pete

john fallon · Dec 25, 2008

/Paul, I see by you responding to the Questions that you consider yourself an Expert. Your answers on the other hand seem to show..........;-)
But in order to be fair I will give you one more chance at "ques" 1) Explain to us in detail how Indirect Pressure works.
While you are on the subject explain the psychology of Why does it work

BTW /Paul I cannot seem to find the word NEVER in my PM to you.
Originally Posted by john fallon
Here are the last 25 threads you started http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...earchid=499119 not much guidance there. The next 25 ain't much better:wink:
john

john

zipmarc · Dec 25, 2008

Pete said:
...I like reading posts by the informed as well as the new dog person...

How do you tell who is and who isn't? Some write better than others.

Its nearly impossible to explain to someone how to do something. Almost all training requires hands on. Pete

Exactly.

Chris Atkinson · Dec 25, 2008

Merry Christmas to all RTF'ers!

Chris

luvalab · Dec 25, 2008

Merry Christmas!!!

Pete · Dec 25, 2008

Zipmarc
I think its pretty easy to tell by the questions asked. No its not a hundred percent accurate but close enough
Its a matter of asking yourself deductive questions about a specific question.
I am probably the crappiest writer here. I think and often write in fragments to save time. Thinking that everyone is following my train of thought. When in reality it is impossible. if we were sitting on a tailgate my hands would fill in the gaps

As far as helping people,,yes I think most of it happens hands on. Then my next question logically would be.
Then why do we extend our selves to help people or be helped over the internet AHHH now we're getting deep. Are we socially deprived group

Pete

zipmarc · Dec 25, 2008

Pete said:
Zipmarc
I think its pretty easy to tell by the questions asked.

I wasn't referring to questions being asked. I was referring to answers being provided.

As far as helping people,yes I think most of it happens hands on. Then my next question logically would be. Then why do we extend our selves to help people or be helped over the internet AHHH now we're getting deep. Are we socially deprived group Pete

When I was down at Rex Carr's, Lanse Brown would frequently remind everyone we were there because we "had a problem", by asking each newcomer: "What's wrong with you?"

I don't think I got his exact wording, but I'm sure would Lanse would be pleased to correct me.

zipmarc · Dec 25, 2008

Originally Posted by laker
Part of the problem is some peoples attempt at humor. Sarcasm can be hard to express on a internet fourm. I have seen plenty of times where someones trying to be funny and is taken the wrong way. Then they have to go back and smooth things over.
It helps if you kind of know the person. If your new or if you don't come around much you don't know what to make of someone's comments. There has been plenty of things I've read on here that made me raise my eyebrows. Only to find out later that they were being sarcastic.
To me a lot of the flare ups result from a misunderstanding.

Gun_Dog2002 said:
I'm guilty of this a lot. and I do mean a LOT.... /Paul

Yeah. Haven't read a lot of flare ups after you post, though. Just lot of gagging and groaning

...

BonMallari · Dec 25, 2008

zipmarc said:
I wasn't referring to questions being asked. I was referring to answers being provided.

When I was down at Rex Carr's, Lanse Brown would frequently remind everyone we were there because we "had a problem", by asking each newcomer: "What's wrong with you?"

I don't think I got his exact wording, but I'm sure would Lanse would be pleased to correct me.

Mimi, those are the kind of stories I love to hear about, I am sure the content would have to be cleaned up for internet use, but in the days before the net, information was handed out firsthand, I mean you actually had to be there. I may be showing my age but when I was a young impressionable college kid I would be like a sponge and soak up all the info that was there for the taking, I remember the first time my brother took me to the National Am in Calif back in the early 70's and I got to meet Ray Goodrich and he let me hang around for a warm up session with NAFC FC Ray's Racsal,it was like getting to meet Sandy Koufax,Earl Campbell or Roger Staubach

Tim West · Dec 25, 2008

Nothing like illustrating a point about how people get tire of the bitching that goes on in this forum.

Here's my training tip of the day. "Throw the short retired twice."

Here's my tip for tomorrow. "Get your dog used to recognizing layout blinds by planting birds in them and running your dogs to them as blinds. Make them dig the birds out of the layout blind".

Merry Christmas!

Gun_Dog2002 · Dec 25, 2008

Good for you posting your PM to me. Sad you didn't post my rely, by the way how come you didn't reply to my PM? Glad to see your still playing the role you choose to play on the internet. Sorry that my helping others bothers you so much. Like I said in my PM back, it would be great if you'd share you experience and knowledge from years of playing the game, instead of deriving pleasure from playing your internet role. Speaking of experience, this is what Webster's definition of an expert is....

Main Entry: 1ex·pert
Pronunciation: \ˈek-ˌspərt, ik-ˈ\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expertus, from past participle of experiri
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : experienced
2: having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience
synonyms see proficient
— ex·pert·ly adverb
— ex·pert·ness noun

So it seems to me that being an expert is really a matter experience. In comparison to a new person, I may be an expert. In comparison to someone like Lardy I may not be. Frankly I've never claimed to be an expert in anything, you're the one putting that label on me. I've found that those who claim to be experts typically stop learning, so while I consider someone like Lardy an expert, my observation with him is that he continues to learn, grow and evolve. I found him to be more than willing to learn from those who attended his seminar, listening to their experiences and mediating on the results as shared.

But John, we've had this discussion on expert before, or have you forgotten?

As for answering you question on indirect pressure, I really don't have any desire to get into it yet again with you. It was thoroughly discussed in this thread...http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30705

and you were too "pig headed" to learn anything....for reference here is the definition of "pig headed"

Main Entry: pig·head·ed
Pronunciation: \ˈpig-ˌhe-dəd\
Function: adjective
Date: 1620
: willfully or perversely unyielding : obstinate
— pig·head·ed·ly adverb
— pig·head·ed·ness noun

Another good thread for you to review provided you find a cure for you "pigheadedness" would be this thread.....http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27084

But to save you time I'll leave you with a great definition of indirect pressure from our good friend Jerry....

"OK, I'm gonna post this ONE Last time. If you can't keep up, take notes.

You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbors voluptious daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).

You yell (whistle) "SON!!!!" (handle). His eyes get back into focus and turns toward you and says "WHAT??" (responding to whistle). For the Amish folks, you walk to him and whop him upside the head!!! (correction-indirect pressure). You then say "You were told to go get the mail, now do what you were told!!!"

That my friends is Indirect pressure and why it works.

Jerry"

I still think deep down your a good guy trying to play a bad guy on the internet. Keep up the role, who knows, someone might actually believe you're a ***** if you sell it well enough. Hope you're having a good day....

/Paul

Pete · Dec 25, 2008

See what I mean
Its difficult to talk about more technical stuff here. It didn't take more than 1 post after I took a stab at Johns challenge to notify the glue factory of a major delivery about to take place.

You guys must have started the festivities early.

Zipmarc
I guess the only real way to tell if someone is giving you a good answere is if you have enough understanding to tell if its a good answere or not.In which case you wouldn't need to ask the question.

In which case I guess John is correct .The one answereing the question would have to submitt a reseme' and those who know them would have to jump in and confirm a verification. Or the person answereing can present an affidavid.

Or better yet no one ask any questions lets just stick to GDG:razz:

Pete

zipmarc · Dec 25, 2008

Yeah, well, this is a forum, not a fr*ggin court room.

knowledable trainers driven away

john fallon

Ted Shih

john fallon

Hoytman

Pete

john fallon

Gun_Dog2002

Pete

john fallon

zipmarc

Chris Atkinson

luvalab

Pete

zipmarc

zipmarc

BonMallari

Tim West

Gun_Dog2002

Pete

zipmarc

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities