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LAF

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'll try and make this as short as possible, but I feel I've taken all the right precautions, and need a little reassurance or help. For this is mine, and both dogs first expierence at a breeding. I have a Grand Hunting retriever Champion that I've received several request from others wanting to breed to him. Never studded him due to my kennel accommodations weren't what I'd would want if I took my female somewhere, and also training ect... just prolonged it. Anyhow, a female was dropped off about a week ago. After two trips to the Vet, her progesterone level reached 2.2 yesterday, and we were given the go ahead to start breeding today. Placed the two dogs together in a small kennel, I got a stool in preparation for when they tied, to try and comfort them until separation. Seems my male stud, was more interested in me than her, he's my dog(6yrs old) and was wanting my attention. I left the area, only to allow myself to peek, and he started immediately circling her, and chattering, ect...She's very willing, flagging, mounting him at times, and rearing towards him often. He mounted her severl times, only to dismount after 10 to 15 second, never tying. If I enter the area, his interest turns towards me. After several unsuccesfull atempts, I separated them for the evening, and let them cool down for 2 to 3 hours.
My male dog appeared worn out. Later again tonight, attempted another breeding, and male dog showed no interest at all, appeared tired, and vomiited his food from earlier. Female again very interested. My plan is again to try in the morning after he rests tonight, and hopefully be able to assist in the insertion, and during a tie. My question is, anyone have suggestions, or expierenced this with a first time breeding?
 
#2 · (Edited)
LAF,
When a female reaches 2.0 that only means that they are beginning to ovulate. It will still take an additional 2 - 3 days for her eggs to become receptive to sperm. About 2 years ago my vet was recommending that we begin breeding when the female reached a 5.0 after consulting with other reproductive specialist he is now recommending that we wait until the female is closer to an 8.0 to a 10.0

I would suggest that optimal breeding dates for you will be sometime between Thursday and Sunday.... if you want more clarification I would recommend that you do another progesterone test. IMHO if you are not able to get a natural breeding on Thursday I would call to make an appointment with your vet for an A/I on Friday (or Saturday) and maybe again on Monday.

If you have additional questions, feel free to email or call me.

Kind Regards,

Wendy Bonello
Cresthill Kennels
________
Vermont Medical Marijuana
 
#3 ·
There are two different scales for progesterone based on the units it is measured in. One scale ovulation is at 5, one is at 9-10. Make sure you are talking apples to apples when comparing progesterone levels and following breeding recommendations. Your best bet is to follow the recommendations of the vet that is comfortable with the lab that they use.
I agree, another progesterone level is nice to prove that ovulation is happening and know how much you should work at a breeding from a timing standpoint. AIs are always the next best option.
 
#4 ·
LH rise is at 2.0-ish.
Ovulation is at 5.0-ish.
It takes 48 hours-ish for eggs to be mature enough to be fertilized.

You are a bit too early.

Melanie

ps After the bitch hits 5.0, you don't keep checking progesterone and pick a number at which it is best to breed. It is 5.0 plus 48 hours. Period. If you happen to get a breeding earlier than that, no harm done. :)
 
#5 ·
I agree with Melanie-you are too early. The female is not relaxed enough to allow penetration, especially for a novice male.

Also, don't feed your male before breeding. Hold off and feed much later after the breeding or attempt.
 
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#6 ·
ErinsEdge said:
Also, don't feed your male before breeding. Hold off and feed much later after the breeding or attempt.
Click to expand...
I agree...they will usually throw up the meal. I don't even feed prior to collection for an A.I. because we'll usually end up with it all over the floor (or worse).

Is there someone around who can manage (or at least help with) the breeding for you, if your male is too distracted with you present? Have you gotten your male used to being handled/collected prior to this? It can really help for this type of situation.

I, too, would venture to guess that it is still pretty early in the girl's cycle for the two newbies to get it all figured out. That could be why your boy isn't all that interested. Owners of experienced stud dogs actually often use the boys to tell them the proper time (in addition to the progesterone test results) since they often won't be the least bit interested until it is "prime time" for breeding to occur. Maybe your boy knows more than you're giving him credit for. ;)
 
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
Placed the two dogs together this morning, male showed very little interest. Female appears ready, flagging, rearing towards him, ect...He did sniff her a few times, and even mounted her once for a few seconds. Other than that, no desire on his part. I find this very unusual, when our female use to come in heat, it drove him nuts, even though they were never allowed to breed. Again, this female appears ready, and no interest on his part. Is there a xxx rated Lassie video, or canine spanish fly anywhere ??:confused:
 
#8 ·
If you still are concerned get a test done today. You sould be able to get some numbers back by Friday. You may still be early. If it makes you feel better give me a call at 814-280-5363. I have done this a ton of times.

Greg
 
#9 ·
LAF said:
Placed the two dogs together this morning, male showed very little interest. Female appears ready, flagging, rearing towards him, ect...He did sniff her a few times, and even mounted her once for a few seconds. Other than that, no desire on his part. I find this very unusual, when our female use to come in heat, it drove him nuts, even though they were never allowed to breed. Again, this female appears ready, and no interest on his part. Is there a xxx rated Lassie video, or canine spanish fly anywhere ??:confused:
Click to expand...
You've gotten some good advice from people who have done this for years.... Nancy (ErinsEdge), Wendy (Cresthill) and Melanie. You are too early. Wendy gave you the exact numbers that my reproduction vets use. Forget the flagging. Your male will forget about you when the time is right. I just put a leash on the female, sit in a chair, and assist as needed. YOu don't want her running around after the tie and injuring your male's "boy parts".
 
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#10 ·
I left the area, only to allow myself to peek, and he started immediately circling her, and chattering, ect...She's very willing, flagging, mounting him at times, and rearing towards him often. He mounted her severl times, only to dismount after 10 to 15 second, never tying.
Click to expand...
#1. She's still to early. Most likely the reason. She MAY just be ovulating now or she may have plateaued. That's why you should get another progesterone. Whomever told you 2.2 was good to go hasn't bred too much.
#2. Make sure you get someone to hold the bitch and not let her jump on him. If she pulls away and no one is there to to hold she may hurt him. She may also be a little intimidating to a first timer.
#3. Best yet get someone experienced to help. Sometimes the male is looking to you to make sure he is being good. Hard to explain but sometimes it's better if there aren't 3 novices and someone experienced is there. I agree, when the timing is right they usually figure it out. Don't yell but don't baby talk either.
 
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#11 · (Edited)
Bitches often flag even if their eggs are not ready to be fertilized. In fact, I haven't seen any that haven't flagged at least a few days before they were truly "ready."

Another progesterone test could in order to make sure she isn't doing what's called stalling out. That is when a bitch's progesterone starts to rise but then stalls for a while before she ovulates.

By doing progesterone tests until she hits 5.0, that will also give the breeder the whelp date. (5.0-ish + 63 days = whelping)

But the bottom line is, you're still too early. :)

ps Oops, just reread Nancy's post and she had already mentioned that she may have plateaued. Great minds... :)
 
#12 ·
Just for anyone who is interested in progesterone test results and how they correlate to a bitch's heat cycle, this is a pretty good article on the Canine Semen Bank website:
http://www.caninesemenbank.com/ProgesteroneValuesandWhattheyMean.html

This is another very extensive group of articles:
http://www.labbies.com/reproduction1.htm
http://www.labbies.com/reproduction2.htm

Sometimes, girls can "stall out" at a number without going through a normal heat cycle (or delaying it), they can have split heats, etc. so it can really help to follow the progesterone levels up and beyond even a 5 since they can even stall out right there and end up not ovulating until much later if at all. A couple of friends have been having some serious issues with this occurring in their girls (2 separate lines, living in different areas so not likely to be any kind of familial thing).
 
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#13 · (Edited)
I have been told by Mary Howley to insert a Q-tip into the females vulva and the first day you see blood that is day one and they are ready to be bred on day fourteen she is ready to be bred. This technique worked for a Super Tanker bitch when bred to Harley and Abe. Both litters were of seven and when bred Multiple times to Elwood also produced seven. The one time breeding to Harley and Abe produced the same as the multiple breedings to Elwood.
 
#14 ·
Richard Halstead said:
I have been told by Mary Howley to insert a Q-tip into the females vulva and the first day you see blood that is day one and they are ready to be bred on day fourteen she is ready to be bred. This technique worked for a Super Tanker bitch when bred to Harley and Abe. Both litters were of seven and when Multiple times to Elwood also produced seven. The one time breeding to Harley and Abe produced the same as the multiple breedings to Elwood.
Click to expand...
Do you think she still uses this "technique" for breedings that are important to her?

I have bitches that absolutely would not have gotten pregnant had we done this.
 
#16 ·
Montview said:
Sometimes, girls can "stall out" at a number without going through a normal heat cycle (or delaying it), they can have split heats, etc. so it can really help to follow the progesterone levels up and beyond even a 5 since they can even stall out right there and end up not ovulating until much later if at all. A couple of friends have been having some serious issues with this occurring in their girls (2 separate lines, living in different areas so not likely to be any kind of familial thing).
Click to expand...
The more people doing progesterones, the more weird things we are seeing. The repro vet also cautioned me about doing another progesterone when the bitch was at 4.8. There are even some bitches that flatten out after ovulation.

Trog can tell you about one of those that had a good ending -but it took 5 or 6 days after ovulation before the stud was interested and then 8 puppies were produced. I had an article but I can't find it showing the different types of cycles.
 
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#17 ·
Melanie Foster said:
Do you think she still uses this "technique" for breedings that are important to her?

I have bitches that absolutely would not have gotten pregnant had we done this.
Click to expand...
Mary is doing progesterones now:)
We just had that discussion, that when we didn't do progesterones and bred on day 13 I guess we were just lucky because they took.
 
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#18 · (Edited)
Melanie Foster said:
Do you think she still uses this "technique" for breedings that are important to her?

I have bitches that absolutely would not have gotten pregnant had we done this.
Click to expand...
Don't you think forcing the issue may be passing on the trait to future generations?

The prognosis (outcome) for infertility in female dogs and cats varies, depending on the underlying cause. Since the most common cause of infertility is improper breeding management, the initial prognosis is good. However, if improper breeding is ruled out, the prognosis for future breeding worsens. Problems that can be resolved by medical management have a fair to good prognosis, whereas those that must be corrected by surgery have a guarded to poor prognosis.
see page for more info http://www.bobmckee.com/Client Info/Reproduction/infertility in females.html
 
#20 ·
Richard Halstead said:
Don't you think forcing the issue may be passing on the trait to future generations?
Click to expand...
I think people just missed a lot more breedings. Some are early, some are late, some go longer in the winter or when they get older. It's no different than humans. In the old days more bitches were shipped by air and kept and bred. Now, it costs less money to do progesterones than it does to drive multiple times or drive and stay in a motel for a week. Besides, it's always the titled bitches that don't take or the breeding you really want.
 
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ErinsEdge
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