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Fowl Play WA

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Pals "happy puppy" class story has me thinking about 4-H. It is another "hands off" correction type of thing. It's just like the pet store puppy class. Lots of praise and love, (which does have it's place, but with an 85 lb male...) but absolutely no physical correction. I sort of sat in on two other club sessions to find out that they're all pretty much the same way.

Every training situation Gunner has been in has been successful because I can physically correct him with a pop, the e-collar, or whatever else is needed to make him realize that I am the boss. Hence, in each of these situations my daughter can also handle him with minimal difficulty. A few weeks ago he snapped at another dog. (After talking to my trainer, it was determined that he was simply being a male and that he is no way aggressive, just a stubborn teenager.) My pop was mentioned last week as an inapporpriate correction because "even though I know what I'm doing, some of these families don't and may try to attempt this at home when it isn't needed...". I swear this dog knows he cannot be corrected at 4-H. I want to take him down one time and make him realize that he's being a jerk and it isn't acceptable, but that is not an acceptable correction. Last week when he was getting a little snotty, I took him from Harleigh and sort of pinned him against the wall in a way that wasn't obvious that I was correcting him, but he knew that I was telling him to knock it off. Any ideas?

Another problem we're having is that other kids don't give him (or any dogs) the right amount of space when they walk by. I'm finally getting comfortable enough to talk to the kids about giving dogs their own space. Even the parents think nothing of letting their dogs walk up and sniff some other dog in the rear and never watching. I'm slowly being able to address this with almost all of the new families.
 
Take him some place else where he would do what he does at class and then get after him the way normal people do!;) Then eventually he will realize when he acts like an idiot or whatever he is going to get punished. Then he won't do it at class. As for not giving him his space if it is during an exercise such as long sit have your daughter hang out and when everyone else has chosen there spot go to the end of the line. It amazes me that everyone has such a problem with not being able to correct their dogs! In our club if we don't correct we get "corrected" because you are letting the behavior continue! Sniffing butts is a big no no in our class with the instructor!!! We just don't tolerate $hit from the dogs at our class so come on down!!!:) Hope it helps!
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Steph, it does help. Thanks. It's such a different way of training than I am used to. I am a leader/helper, and will probably be taking a more active role because both of the current leaders have been doing this for 35+ years. Every time I do make a correction, I get told that they don't want other people to go home and try that without knowing what to do. It's frustrating.

We do have Harleigh work on the end of the group so that she has a dog on only one side of her right now. She's young and doesn't need that added pressure either, especially when he's being a jerk. Once he realizes that the expectations are the same at 4-H, he'll take off. He knows all the commands they're working on, and can do them quite well in most situations, just not here yet.
 
Challenging situation that I personally went through, although no one was talking me into being a leader...

You just have to teach the kids the positive side and they will get more out of their dogs than they would without your help.

In the meantime, no one will understand why you win at all the obedience shows LOL...
 
I saw an episode of "Dog Whisperer" where Cesar put a bandanna over the ecollar. Tell them that the bandanna is a new method from Cesar........hahahahahahah !!!!!!.........this is a joke....;);)
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
I saw an episode of "Dog Whisperer" where Cesar put a bandanna over the ecollar. Tell them that the bandanna is a new method from Cesar........hahahahahahah !!!!!!.........this is a joke....;);)
I can't do that, he's a black lab, not a golden;):p
 
Get him a BLACK Harley Davidson bandana.......have a 'Biker" dog........LOL
 
In all seriousness:

It took a while to sink in, but the obedience advice I got that was the most productive for me in the long run was not to put my dog into a situation where it was doomed to fail--If I do, it is me failing the dog. How can the dog trust me if I give it more than I know it can handle? The correlary is that if my dog does fail when I have reason to expect it not to, I have to be in a position to correct it.

I really wish I had some things to do over with those precepts in mind. I would not have been in a lot of obedience classes I was in, and my first dog would not have learned to take license with obedience in an obedience ring. He was/is a reasonably talented dog, but unfortunately thinking about competing in obedience became SO not worth it because of my failure to approach it in an orderly and disciplined way, with far more proofing at each point along the way. Oh well--I've got enough on my hands.

Sounds like you have an inkling of the pitfalls of group classes far earlier than I did, and I hope you can get some success out of a less-than-ideal situation (or forego the situation if you need to).
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Get him a BLACK Harley Davidson bandana.......have a 'Biker" dog........LOL
That might work because my daughter is named "Harleigh". Now I just need him to not yip when he gets his nick. He's a very vocal complainer. Obviously, I need a better plan, but this is entertaining.
 
You are walking into a training philosophy that is different than yours. They sound to be the possitive reinforced method of teaching. I have done this both ways and the both have merits for the right situation. The snapping issue should be met with a stern reprimand vs a correction. That's just not permitted. A strong reprimand I have used in the possitive enforced arena was to move the dog to a new location and give them a stern NO. On the right dog this will work, you just need to find that level of reprimand that works. Corrections to me are for slight deviations in the desired behavior.

The other issue could be you dog has built a tolerance to your level of correction to where he/she only knows {blank} is going to happen only after a hard collar correction. MIx it up a bit, removing him from something he enjoys is a correction, moving him to a new location on the floor and required to do XYZ is a way to refocus his behavior.
 
Who says you can't leave the ecollar on and not use it? you wouldnt' be teaching others anything they could accidentally do at home that way.

If they have an issue with that you are clearly in the wrong arena philosophy wise, right?

Hence we no longer participate in 4-H...

It was funny when we were there because our JRT was agressive to other dogs and they never thought they would ever get her under control. They wouldn't have, with their methods. They even told my wife to use a regular choker on the dog, and she did so despite me telling her it was not only ineffective but dangerous. After a bunch of sessions I took the dog out and started traveling to places where I knew I could correct without an issue. In a week with a pinch collar and a heeling stick, all agresssion while on lead was gone. The club was amazed. We then took the positive stuff my son was doing at club and combined it with on lead corrections... The club was AMAZED at what he was getting out of her. No wonder... he wasn't using their program.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Who says you can't leave the ecollar on and not use it? you wouldnt' be teaching others anything they could accidentally do at home that way.
The leader and I have agreed not to discuss the e-collar issue any more. She is very much anti-, while I am very much pro-e-collar. We've had our discussion and have unofficially agreed that this is a topic we will not discuss.

The current leader is my old 4-H leader and her philosophy has changed as she got older, but she obviously values my experience (what there is of it) because she asked me to come on as a leader. She knows that I know what I'm doing for the most part, and know where to go when I don't.
 
It was too easy to resist. ;):cool:
Actually I am not a die hard golden fan! I have too many breeds that I like to settle on just one!! My attitude might change once I get going with her though!:D
 
I took him from Harleigh and sort of pinned him against the wall in a way that wasn't obvious that I was correcting him, but he knew that I was telling him to knock it off.
Id really be interested in hearing the details of this manuver, photos would be helpful. :p Bud
 
Discussion starter · #18 · (Edited)
Id really be interested in hearing the details of this manuver, photos would be helpfup. :p Bud
Bud, there is no way you'd get pictures! We do this heel thing where the kids walk the dogs in small circles and stop when the dog is close to the wall to help them sit strait. I took Gunner and did the same exercise, except than when he stopped, he was shoved into the wall with my knee and held there until he settled down. No one could tell that I was "correcting" him, but Gunner.

He frustrates me so much sometimes. Today dad and I took 5 dogs out for a run. He comes back on the whistle 100% of the time out there. When we encounter other dogs or people (or horses or elk), he will walk like a gentleman in a "heel" without a leash and mind so stinking well. Harleigh was helping in the kitchen and kicks him out, putting him in a "sit" on the carpet just outside the kitchen. He stays there for 3-4 minutes, before he lays down and falls asleep. Never considered crossing into the kitchen.

I must go now, Brad just brought me a warm brownie.

That was good. I was saying how much he frustrates me. He can mind better (with or without the collar) than 2 year old Stryke sometimes at home or when we're out running, but at 4-H, he's a total jerk. All of the stuff he's supposed to do, he'll do flawlessly at home for Harleigh, but once he gets there, he turns into a stupid teenage boy. (I know, that's his age. I'm starting to see why the parents of teenage boys are in denial of how awful their boys can be.)
 
Joni with all due respect to your friend...

How do you take a dog that behaves well in one environment, arguably because you employed an effective set of teachings, followed up with effective corrections, and get him to behave in an environmen where those tolls are not at your disposal? It sounds confusing and unfair to the dog, at least to a degree.

Maybe you can do what I did... I took our JRT to similiar environments where correction MY way was OK. She was then easily able to understand the rules and boundries in the 4-H class, becasue although it was a different location, it was similiar to the other places she had been corrected.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Joni with all due respect to your friend...

How do you take a dog that behaves well in one environment, arguably because you employed an effective set of teachings, followed up with effective corrections, and get him to behave in an environmen where those tolls are not at your disposal? It sounds confusing and unfair to the dog, at least to a degree.

Maybe you can do what I did... I took our JRT to similiar environments where correction MY way was OK. She was then easily able to understand the rules and boundries in the 4-H class, becasue although it was a different location, it was similiar to the other places she had been corrected.
Darrin, I agree with you. My challenge now is finding that place. I am going to contact the manager of the fair grounds and ask for permission to train on the premises. He seems to lose his mind inside the barns. I don't know if they'll allow me to work inside the barns. Technically, dogs aren't allowed on the grounds unless they're with the 4-H club. I am in the process of finding a place that is similar enough where I can correct him. My resources are limited here. The pet stores aren't the quite the same, but that's an option. They sell e-collars, and the puppy class trainer recommended one to one of the owners in our class with Stryke. I'm still on a quest to find that right environment.

Victoria Stillwell's attitude has permiated the county here, and so many people find e-collars (or training collars) to be cruel. I have a challenge ahead of me, but I'm looking.
 
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