I am in the process of looking for a puppy and also a low force way of training him. I'm really looking into the so called Amish training. I am just starting out training this will be my first dog. My goals are to have a well rounded, obedient dog that I can possibly try to title. My question stems from "The Wildrose Way" dvd. Like I said I'm new to this and I was impressed by this dvd. In the video, the dogs appear to do what ever the handler wanted them to do and they were very steady. My question is how well do these "amish" dogs do in trials and hunt tests compared to conventional training?
Titled "amish" dogs
miken
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It's like deja vu all over again. That is exactly what I did. I started in 1989 with my first lab. In 1989 I could run like a deer. Now I run like a fat guy.
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Very similar to my own experience, except I learned first from James Lamb Free's "Training Your Retriever". Neither of my first two trained Labs were force fetched, and neither every wore an e-collar. Both were QAA. But now all I can do is wonder what they might have been.
Evan
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Miken,
Welcome to RTF!
Where did you first hear the term "Amish" in reference to retriever training? Does Mike say this in his video/DVD?
Can you title a dog without using an e collar? Yes you can.
There is no "one size fits all" with anything in the retriever world.
If you know exactly what you want in the end, that may help you make some decisions on breedings and training methods. The problem most of us have is that our desires, goals, beliefs and opinion of our own training knowledge tends to evolve over time!
Welcome! Chris
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Hey, Chris...bout' time 
Don't wanna answer for miken, but 'No!' Mike Stewart does not use the term 'amish' in his video.
Snick
Don't wanna answer for miken, but 'No!' Mike Stewart does not use the term 'amish' in his video.
Snick
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Brother Snick, I hope you keep at this stuff for future retrievers. It will be fun to see your training ideas evolve!Hey, Chris...bout' time
Don't wanna answer for miken, but 'No!' Mike Stewart does not use the term 'amish' in his video.
Snick
Thanks for the answer.
Chris
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I hope so to, Chris...and, the Good Lord willing, I will. And, I may evlove..but, where I evolve to, is even scary to me
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Originally Posted by Evan
Your previous dogs were QAA. What's wrong with that? ;-)
Jeez, Evan. You sound like a 'little league' parent.
Your previous dogs were QAA. What's wrong with that? ;-)
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Ok ,I will fess up too, my brother and I learned originally from the Jambs Lamb Free book too until the day we met John Luther, I remember he just laughed and said burn that d**m book... I wont rip any author on a public forum, but at the time the only other book I had ever read on dog training was by James Wehle. (Elhew pointers)
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Good Lord Leddy that was 20 yrs ago we all run like fat guys now, and if you must quote George Clinton at least go with "Why must I be like that why must I chase the cat.....nuthin but the dog in me"
Hey it is a dog forum afterall.
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At least one of them had a very good shot at an FC. Big time marker. I just didn't have the knowledge in time for her.Originally Posted by Evan
Jeez, Evan. You sound like a 'little league' parent.
In other words, they were nice dogs, and being QAA is nice. But what might they have been?
Evan
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Leddy,
Henry David Thoreau
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Evan Graham said:
Nough' said. <Exit stage left>
What's wrong with what they were?
Nough' said. <Exit stage left>
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Evan,
have most of the dogs you have trained since then, and used collar training techniques with, achieved all-age titles? just wondering if this is the limiting factor in most cases.-Paul
have most of the dogs you have trained since then, and used collar training techniques with, achieved all-age titles? just wondering if this is the limiting factor in most cases.-Paul
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There was nothing wrong with the dog I trained without a collar. She was exactly what I needed at that time in my life. She had tons of desire and was a really nice marker. She was limited by my training abilities. Not that she ever would have been an FC/AFC or even QAA but she would have been a better trained dog if I had followed a different system.
Training the Amish way does not fit my temperment. After I run 100 yards to make a correction I am mad. Maybe you can calmly sprint 100 yards and deliberately correct a dog. When I ran that far I was angry. That is not the way to communicate what you want the dog to do. Anger just confuses the dog. I can calmly and deliberately push the button on my transmitter and then show the dog what I want.
If you can run the dog down calmly and get the behaviour you want then by all means go ahead. It can be done and there are those that can prove it. Not my cup of tea. I have used the Amish method and cannot reccomend it.
Mark L.
Training the Amish way does not fit my temperment. After I run 100 yards to make a correction I am mad. Maybe you can calmly sprint 100 yards and deliberately correct a dog. When I ran that far I was angry. That is not the way to communicate what you want the dog to do. Anger just confuses the dog. I can calmly and deliberately push the button on my transmitter and then show the dog what I want.
If you can run the dog down calmly and get the behaviour you want then by all means go ahead. It can be done and there are those that can prove it. Not my cup of tea. I have used the Amish method and cannot reccomend it.
Mark L.
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Hey Evan I thought you were against using QAA as a unit of measure or title and were among those that said it diminished what titled dogs have accomplished.
I wish I new the way to put a smile, wink and a nudge behind my comment.
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No, Steve. I never have been opposed to acknowledging it as the qualification or achievement it is. I am still opposed to the idea of creating a new title for it. I know I did good!
My statement supports my respect for an FC (or AFC), which is one of the biggest reasons I'm opposed to a new QAA title.
Evan
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Now back to the original question. How do Amish trained dogs do in tests/competition?
We have 1 SHR
1 FC
1 AFC
3 GMHR
3 MH
2 UH
4 Qaa I know it is not a title
1 HRCH
I only used the highest title attained for each dogs or multiple titles if in different venues.
We also have 3 individuals who have trained with both methods. All three of us are of the opinion that you will have a better trained dog by using the collar. The Amish system does work but takes much more effort and does have limitations. Of the Amish trained dogs I have seen at hunt tests most have problems passing the blinds. If you are the type of person who hunts deer with a recurve bow because of the challenge this might be the training style for you.
Mark L.
P.S. There are actually 4 who have used both methods and I think Chris is now using a collar.
We have 1 SHR
1 FC
1 AFC
3 GMHR
3 MH
2 UH
4 Qaa I know it is not a title
1 HRCH
I only used the highest title attained for each dogs or multiple titles if in different venues.
We also have 3 individuals who have trained with both methods. All three of us are of the opinion that you will have a better trained dog by using the collar. The Amish system does work but takes much more effort and does have limitations. Of the Amish trained dogs I have seen at hunt tests most have problems passing the blinds. If you are the type of person who hunts deer with a recurve bow because of the challenge this might be the training style for you.
Mark L.
P.S. There are actually 4 who have used both methods and I think Chris is now using a collar.
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For that matter, what is the track record for "pure positive" trained dogs in HT and FT events?
A trainer Ends Up With The Dog S/He Deserves Regards;
Lisa
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probably not so good...
glad i deserved good ones!-Paul
glad i deserved good ones!-Paul
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