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david gibson

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In Junior, Senior and Master Hunting
Tests, a dog shall come tractably at heel and sit promptly
at the point designated by its handler and remain
quietly where placed until given further orders. Dogs
that bark or whine on line, in a blind or while retrieving
shall be scored low in Trainability. Loud and prolonged
barking or whining is sufficient cause to justify grading
a dog “0” in Trainability.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

this does not specifically state that the dog has to be at walking heel the entire time you approach the line. So say we leave the holding blind and halfway there or 20 feet away or so I have him sit and i continue to the line, then call him and he comes straight to heeling position. permissible??

please state if you are a judge on your response if so.

i fully realize that the dog should be able to heel under control all the way to the line, and he does fine in training of course. However, after two weekends of Jr tests and some including shot flyers he now understands the concept and the exhilaration of running a test and is dying to get to the line so he is wanting me to walk faster. i wanted to try him leashless to see how he would respond but the Jr rules require a leash approaching the line, and the judge reminded me of this when i tried. i can stop every 3rd step or so and say here and he will retract, but thats also potentially annoying to the judges i am sure. once at the line he sits and stays with no problem at all and has excellent line manners, its just getting there thats the issue. with our first senior test this weekend i dont have much chance to set up a test condition with other dogs to work on this.

Therefore, i think a having him sit outside the area a bit and crisply come to heel on command would be more desirable, but i need some judges input. other veterans are free to opine as well, but i do want to see what licensed judges think.
 
#2 · (Edited)
I would say STOP running tests now why you don't have a test wise dog and focus on OB. Believe it or not most dogs walk nicer at heel without a lead than on, so I always figured if I can get my dog to walk on lead to the line i'm better off. The actions you are taking right now of stoping and going are good ways to maintain control, but you are the bleeding edge of pushing a dog over the edge, so be careful! ;)

I would also say that sitting the dog and then calling to heel after covering some distance is nothing more than a "trick" on your part to cover up poor OB, in Senior you have to do a walk-up, how you going to do that if your dog is at the holding blind?

Fast dogs, slow, s-l-o-w walk to the line at heel......your dog should be back peddling more than walking foward, that's how slow you should be walking, also without a ton of "heel, here, heel, here" commands!

I think you are at the point in your HT adventure you have to decide what to do....good luck.....

BTW I have a test wise, couldn't heel to save his life from the last holding blind to the line dog, great in the holding blind, great on the line, but getting there was a whole different story!

Lainee, Flash (<---the test wise one) and Bullet (<---the one who can walk to the line at heel)

And since you asked - no not a HT judge in AKC, use to judge NAHRA, am a FT judge
 
#3 ·
Since I am new to all of this as well and am still waiting on a pup and have some time to go before I get to a JH test is it better to have the dog at heel off leash to the line at a Junior and completely OB and steady from blind to the line? Or should you use a slip lead to the line instead? What is the preferred method?

Linas
 
#4 ·
First of all I give the instructions when I am judging that you will walk with you dog at heel from the holding blind to the line. Second what do you intend to do about a walk up where your dog is also expected to be at heel? What about if asked to do a remote sit, it would be a shame to see you sit you dog as required only to have it come to heel. Believe it or not it is not most judges first rodeo and stunts like that are only going to get your dog looked at harder for trainability issues.
Take FOM’s advice and work the OB before you create a real problem.

Yes I am an AKC judge and no I would not rather see your dog sit and then come to heel. I want to see your dog heel when it is expected to do so period, it is a hunt test not an dog trick show
 
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#5 ·
Linas said:
Since I am new to all of this as well and am still waiting on a pup and have some time to go before I get to a JH test is it better to have the dog at heel off leash to the line at a Junior and completely OB and steady from blind to the line? Or should you use a slip lead to the line instead? What is the preferred method?

Linas
Click to expand...

Work with your dog to teach it to heel off lead, but don;t be a fool, use your lead in JR's. No slip leads allowed to the line
 
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Discussion starter · #6 · (Edited)
FOM - - right on the walk up - didnt think of that. he will stay within a few feet and sit on the whistle or command well.

stopping HT's and working on OB is not an option. it has to be a hunt test situation to evoke this issue; i pretty much am sold on it just being inexperience and young immaturity and it will work itself out after a test or two....i dont think it would be so bad as to cause a failure. once the test is going OB is perfect
 
#7 ·
surfgeoD300 said:
(snip)
stopping HT's and working on OB is not an option. it has to be a hunt test situation to evoke this issue; i pretty much am sold on it just being experience and maturity and it will work itself out after a test or two....
Click to expand...
it's usually quite the opposite. The problem, 99% of the time, will continue to get worse.

FOM hit it on the head.

If you aren't willing to stop HT's to fix problems, you will only create more problems and an out of control dog that will have issues at every test they run in the future. It's my pet peeve for people to say "I CAN'T not run the test!!"... You are risking everything you've worked for. And then I see them a year or two later with a dog they cannot control and they either no longer run tests or run and repeatedly fail. It's a shame... Dogs only live once. You go ahead and make this mistake now and you may forfeit your dog's entire career. It IS something that's easily fixed IF YOU STOP RUNNING TESTS. If you continue to run tests, it will become more and more near impossible to fix. Do you ever want to run master?

In addition, who WANTS to go run a test knowing their dog has a major issue in trainability? I know people do it all the time. I have no idea why??? These things are not difficult to fix if folks would suck it up. It would make their future HT experience much more enjoyable.

I'm not clear on what you're asking otherwise. Are you asking to leave your dog in the holding blind, go to the line and then call him to heel?

That's not the intent... The dog has to walk tractably from the holding line to the blind.

-K
 
#8 ·
I'm a judge.

I would allow the sequence of events if you were say walking down a slippery bank to the water's edge. IOW, if you needed to worry about safety and walking at heel, safety comes first.

Other than that, and that's perhaps only 5-10 feet, walking at heel is a requirement. That said, I'm not a stickler for Obedience ring heeling. If you and your dog walk to the line and he's under control without constant verbal reminders and he looks like he came to do the work, I probably won't note anything one way or the other. Heeling is assumed.

Eric
 
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#9 ·
How many people have we seen here that crashed and burned because they continued to run young dogs in Junior, and then they want help to fix it because they can't advance?
 
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#10 ·
surfgeoD300 said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In Junior, Senior and Master Hunting
Tests, a dog shall come tractably at heel and sit promptly
at the point designated by its handler and remain
quietly where placed until given further orders. Dogs
that bark or whine on line, in a blind or while retrieving
shall be scored low in Trainability. Loud and prolonged
barking or whining is sufficient cause to justify grading
a dog “0” in Trainability.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

this does not specifically state that the dog has to be at walking heel the entire time you approach the line. So say we leave the holding blind and halfway there or 20 feet away or so I have him sit and i continue to the line, then call him and he comes straight to heeling position. permissible??

please state if you are a judge on your response if so.

i fully realize that the dog should be able to heel under control all the way to the line, and he does fine in training of course. However, after two weekends of Jr tests and some including shot flyers he now understands the concept and the exhilaration of running a test and is dying to get to the line so he is wanting me to walk faster. i wanted to try him leashless to see how he would respond but the Jr rules require a leash approaching the line, and the judge reminded me of this when i tried. i can stop every 3rd step or so and say here and he will retract, but thats also potentially annoying to the judges i am sure. once at the line he sits and stays with no problem at all and has excellent line manners, its just getting there thats the issue. with our first senior test this weekend i dont have much chance to set up a test condition with other dogs to work on this.

Therefore, i think a having him sit outside the area a bit and crisply come to heel on command would be more desirable, but i need some judges input. other veterans are free to opine as well, but i do want to see what licensed judges think.
Click to expand...
coming tractably at heel means by your side under control. Heeling is a dog walking at your side, no confusion here.

Sitting a dog and calling him to you once you are at the line IS NOT coming to the line at heel. Not gonna allow it.

No where is it written you MUST bring the dog to the line on lead. It allows you to do so and most Jr dogs need this.

I am a judge and I will on occasion ask a handler to go back and re-heel a dog in Jr or Sr. As long as you are trying to work together, in Jr's I will not hurt you for stopping and trying to maintatin control as you approach the line. In Sr's, a dog that surges ahead and comes back to heel when told will not be hurt by me. You are trying to work together and that is important. It is not an obedience ring, but control is required.
 
#11 ·
Eric Johnson said:
I'm a judge.

I would allow the sequence of events if you were say walking down a slippery bank to the water's edge. IOW, if you needed to worry about safety and walking at heel, safety comes first.

Other than that, and that's perhaps only 5-10 feet, walking at heel is a requirement. That said, I'm not a stickler for Obedience ring heeling. If you and your dog walk to the line and he's under control without constant verbal reminders and he looks like he came to do the work, I probably won't note anything one way or the other. Heeling is assumed.

Eric
Click to expand...
Just for the record I did not mean to imply that I require the dog to be stuck to your leg. I do not, however, want to see the dog circling around you, running out in front of you, getting to the line 5 yards ahead of you. I think most judges want to see the dog in control and what I call a hunting heel which is not the same as heel in the OB ring. I want the dog beside you working with you and ready to take your commands.
That said I will tell you about a master test I set up a few weeks ago. The memory bird was a walk up at about 125 yards. There was no call from the holding blind, the BB’s just launched the bird and shot the popper on my signal. Any dog that was not working well at heel MISSED the mark because they were looking elsewhere and not paying attention to the handler as the “heeled” to the line. No matter how loosely heeling may be judged it is a very important skill and one I suggest you work on. On another note at the HRC Grand you are expected to come to the line with “Grand” style and that means your dog better be stuck to your leg or they will send you home with no birds
 
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Discussion starter · #12 · (Edited)
ok then, he has to heel to the line. question answered. done. thats all i asked and thank you for the answer.

as for the rest of the advice i thank you as well and i dont want to come off sounding like i am not listening, but remember - you have not seen the dog work. his OB is absolutely perfect at the line, both judges yesterday commented he was the best dog they had seen to that point - about 35 dogs into a field of 43 in the 2nd test, and after the first test one judge commented she wished her dog would behave as well at the line. i think you guys have an image that the dog is trying to run all over the place, he is not. approaching the line in jr he would have a taut lead, i stop and say "here" he retracts, probably 4 times till we get to the line. its not like he is choking or dragging me or walking on 2 legs like many Jr dogs do. training last friday with a pro and another dog and there were no issues, and we were working on approaching the line and honoring the entire time with no leads. i talked to him yesterday about this and he shrugged his shoulders and said you just have to see what he does in a test because we could not duplicate it. we will try again this week.

the only way i can work on OB would be to stick and nick a dog that is already heeling perfectly, and i am not going to do that. thats no different than sticking a dog over and over after he has already sit. whats the point? so dont think i am being arrogant when i say we are running anyway, i am only acting on a good pro's advice who has seen the dog work. this was intended strictly as a rules clarification and judges opinion, and again I thank you for the answers.
 
#13 ·
Everyone is talking about reinforcing OB. Yes but how do you reinforce OB at a HT or trial?
Very hard once the dog has a taste of the wild and woolly at these events.
I suggest working with a training group setup to simulate the atmosphere and if you can't do that, then plan or using your $70+ entry fee as a training expense. If the dog doesnt heel with you , plan on picking the dog up, putting the leash on, thanking the judges. and heading back to the truck. If you do have a traing group, plan on doing the same thing. If the dog won't come to heel then put the leash on and put the dog back in his crate. Do it as many times as it takes for the dog to realize that if he wont heel, he wont get the bird. Even if it takes 2 days or more.
Sacrifice the money and time now so that you wont waste time and money later.
I talk from bitter experience!
You cannot expect a dog with desire to transit well from OB school to walking at heel to the line WITHOUT a lot of hard work from you walking to the line with your dog- Use whatever it takes; e-collar, stick, walking backwards away from your dog, etc etc
I have found that if, once the dog understands where heel really is, that doing heeling drills before going to the line - in training and at a trial (out of sight of the AKC rep and anyone wanting to turn you in)- can help calm the dog down.
Grabbing your dog from the crate and rushing to the line is a guaranteed method to have an out of control dog at the line.
Reinforce crate manners- Sit-open the door-sit- until I tell you OK. Establish control at the start and never relinquish it. You're the Decider.
 
#15 ·
Gee david you have been on here long enough to know that your going to get more than you ask for. Wow the value of rtf!! Always get more than you want or ask for!
 
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Discussion starter · #18 ·
dixidawg said:
Seems to me this part of your OP invites comments. :rolleyes:


Exactly why do you feel the need to criticize folks that are honestly trying to help you?
Click to expand...
who did i criticize? i thanked everyone up and down - but i asked for opinion/comments on a specific rule, thats all. and thats all i wanted in return - comments on that rule, not comments of conjecture about my dog and his training. i dont think anyone here or anywhere else in the world - including Danny Farmer - is qualified to give further conjecture and opinion if they have not seen the dog work. they are imagining things that may not be reality. i did not ask for advice on how to correct this, i have 2 very qualified pros that i work with and their advice is all i need.

thank you for understanding.

badbullgator is a wise and sage individual!
 
#19 ·
As a judge (AKC), if you sat the dog at the holding blind and called him, I would probably ask you to go back and walk with your dog at the line (now that you mention it--nobody has ever done this to me).

As far as the dog coming to the line at heel, it does not mean that his shoulder is always in line with your leg. If he gets ahead and you stop and he backs up before you start again, I am cool with that--the dog obviously knows what he is supposed to do and did it. If you toss in a quiet "heel" or two along the way, not as good but still not going to hurt you (except in walk ups, as others have pointed out).

If you take a step, dog runs to the line, you shout "HEEL!" dog runs back, you take another step, dog runs to the line and you keep yelling until you both get there, that is a problem.
 
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#20 ·
Daivd,

I offered you more advice based on what you told me.....been there done that. My Flash is "retired" - we run Quals and the rare HT, I swear I'm going to finish his HRCH before he kicks the bucket....what you described sounds just like what we went through, it got progresively tougher and his only flaw is getting from the last holding blind to the line.....okay at Qual distance of blinds he gets loose, but he didn't start training for FTs until he was 5 and by then he was test wise enough to make a grown man cry!

The best way to work on it in training is not to run tests and let the dog mature - my current FT dog did not step to the line until he was 17 months old, he was a little wild and heeled to the line on lead better for my Pro than me, but we had a better foundation to work on to make sure as his derby career progressed that his AA career would not be hampered by his ability to walk at heel - I swore to God I would never let another dog down by not making them heel - to this day I wonder what Flash could of been.

The question you asked is one we often see over and over again on RTF, hence Erin's comments. I agree with her, maybe you and your dog are an exception to the rule, but from a "general, no we have not seen the dog in training or a test" question - the advice will be the same - stop running tests and work on OB, let the dog mature, let the foundation set.....

Good luck, this coming weekend....

FOM
 
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