Is EIC over rated??

kimsmith · Apr 2, 2009

I'm not posting to get anything going about EIC and it's affects. I'm not down playing the defect in labs.

Why is there such a wide range of affected dogs. Like one dog will go down in the kennel if they get excited and another has never gone down but has the genes. I posted on another thread that I trained a female that went down 2 times over 4 years and that was because of pressure. She was one of the best dogs that I've trained. I've heard that we have some FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC dogs that are affected but man how do they get to that level if the disease is that bad?

ErinsEdge · Apr 2, 2009

I believe U of M is working on why some are affected but never go down and others go down the first time and die (witnessing that changed my mind on the severity of the condition). Genetics is not simple. They also report that there are affecteds that never go down but they can have offspring that are severely affected, and I do know of such a case personally. You had a good experience but I would not take a risk of producing an affected and expecting that to happen again.

Angie B · Apr 2, 2009

We were discussing this the other day... Something like 19% of all affecteds show symptoms... That's it...

There has to be "marker" genes involved..

Angie

YardleyLabs · Apr 2, 2009

kimsmith said:
I'm not posting to get anything going about EIC and it's affects. I'm not down playing the defect in labs.

Why is there such a wide range of affected dogs. Like one dog will go down in the kennel if they get excited and another has never gone down but has the genes. I posted on another thread that I trained a female that went down 2 times over 4 years and that was because of pressure. She was one of the best dogs that I've trained. I've heard that we have some FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC dogs that are affected but man how do they get to that level if the disease is that bad?

My experience is pretty much limited to my affected dog and what people owning other dogs have told me over the last year. EIC is by no means as serious a problem as CNM or dysplastic hips. However, for the types of work that most of us want to do it is seriously limiting. My 15 month old has only had four collapses -- one in training, three while playing fun bumpers with my other dogs. She came very close to collapsing on a vet visit where she was made excited and happy by all the dogs in the waiting room and another time when she almost collapsed while waiting in the holding blind at a hunt test which she passed easily. It's heart breaking because she has all the talent to run trials but I can't take the risk of training her seriously. She is still too wired at 18 months to be placed with a pet family, and I do not think it would be appropriate to breed her even though I could guarantee there would be no affected pups. She is not in any pain. She does not require any unusual medical care and, now that I recognize her triggers and symptoms, I am not really worried about emergencies arising from her condition. With purchase price, vet bills (one of her collapses was life threatening) and eight months of professional training, she is now a very loveable, hyperactive pet who just happens to have cost me over $7000.

kimsmith · Apr 2, 2009

Angie I was thinking the same thing but I'm no expert.

Yardley, that is another thing I've heard about these dogs and mine was the same way. They were hyperactive, fine specimen, great muscle mask, sounds like everything you want in a dog.

If this is a bad disease and we take every dog that is affected or carriers out of the equation what will we have then?

YardleyLabs · Apr 2, 2009

Angie B said:
We were discussing this the other day... Something like 19% of all affecteds show symptoms... That's it...

There has to be "marker" genes involved..

Angie

I believe Katie has indicated that 85% of all affected dogs that they have tested over the age of three have collapsed at least once:

Katie Minor said:
Last time I checked, I believe those 3 yrs or older and not collapsing was about 15% with more than 600 EE or "affected" dogs identified.

Finn's picture is up on our office wall, and I'm looking at him right now!

(emphasis added)

Angie B · Apr 2, 2009

Evidently I had the percentage's reversed.... It was a discussion during training with clients and one of them threw that percentage out there... I took it at face value. She's pretty sharp and on top of these things...

My personal experience is that affecteds that show no symptoms is higher then the affecteds that show symptoms,,, in my kennel anyway.

I still think there's more to the picture...

Angie

Wyldfire · Apr 2, 2009

Genetics is not simple.

We always like things in black and white, but genetics aren't always that way. Cystic Fibrosis in humans is a lot like EIC is dogs. All you have to do is go to a CF clinic and you see kids with the same genetic disease, same age, ect with widely varing issues and health. Some do so well you wouldn't know they were sick, and others can be barely surviving.

Cody Covey · Apr 2, 2009

is this like magic Johnson and AIDS?

kimsmith · Apr 3, 2009

How do these dog compete at such a high level? Your right we want it black and white with a little color, but EIC doesn't make sense to this uneducated guy. CNM is clear cut but EIC isn't. Every dog that goes down now has EIC, what happen to all of the other bad things they could have had.

Sissi · Apr 3, 2009

kimsmith said:
How do these dog compete at such a high level? Your right we want it black and white with a little color, but EIC doesn't make sense to this uneducated guy. CNM is clear cut but EIC isn't. Every dog that goes down now has EIC, what happen to all of the other bad things they could have had.

But in Case of EIC we do have the privilege to have a genetic test. So why not using it and avoid to breed affected (to eliminate any risk for possible episodes)? It doesn´t do any harm and you can even breed your affected dog, if it was the best one you ever had. Just breed it to a clear.

kimsmith · Apr 3, 2009

Exercise induced collapse, you can do a search and find thread after thread on the subject.

It doesn´t do any harm and you can even breed your affected dog

With all the hype about EIC you wouldn't find anyone that would touch an EIC affected to EIC clear breeding unless they were well educated about labradors and knew what they wanted.

kimsmith · Apr 3, 2009

Sorry Jake for not answering the question, I had to go eat and help with my shape. (round)

I'll give you the uneducated description of EIC.

Dogs with this genetic disorder will loose control of there back legs kind of like heat stoke, but when you cool them down and let them rest they usually jump back in about 30 minutes. Most will try to keep running but the back legs go limp. I've even heard they can loose control of their front legs too. Most owners learn what to watch for that triggers there dog and they don't have as many problems. I've also heard with age symtoms go away. Hope the helps.... Hope I didn't forget anything.

The problem I have is some dogs that have the genetic markers will never go down and some will go down by just getting fed because of the excitement. I've even heard that some have died but how did they know it wasn't heat stoke that killed them.

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

kimsmith said:
If this is a bad disease and we take every dog that is affected or carriers out of the equation what will we have then?

We will have a much healthier population of Field Labs! There is NO shortage of very talented dogs that have tested clear for both EIC and CNM.

Losthwy · Apr 3, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimsmith

If this is a bad disease and we take every dog that is affected or carriers out of the equation what will we have then?

We will have a much healthier population of Field Labs! There is NO shortage of very talented dogs that have tested clear for both EIC and CNM.

Second that.

Wyldfire · Apr 3, 2009

What is EIC, if you don't mind me asking?

http://www1.umn.edu/umnnews/video/AHC.html

http://www.vdl.umn.edu/vdl/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/home.html

.

kimsmith · Apr 3, 2009

Mr Booty and Losthwy are you saying that Affected and Carriers should be fixed so we wouldn't have to worry about EIC. What Genetic disease will be next, do you think we will cause more problems down the line by fixing 60 percent of the FT Labradors. I think that is what was posted that 60 percent were at least carriers. Not trying to get into an argument, but just wondering.

ErinsEdge · Apr 3, 2009

I've even heard that some have died but how did they know it wasn't heat stoke that killed them.

The test was not available for the first dog. His sire is a carrier. The second dog was from the same sire and he was affected from post mortem blood-(just before the test was released). He also had a littermate that died the same way.

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

I don't see any need for breeding carriers. Not with all the "clears" to choose from. Of course, if I owned a carrier I might think otherwise. One could argue that there is nothing wrong with carriers and there really isn't, if you are not going to breed them. However, we can't police down the road and people unknowingly will produce affecteds. So, with all the clears to choose from, there is really no reason to breed carriers.

Other diseases popping up? To me, that is like being scared of the boogie man. I'd rather deal with what we know than speculate.

Pheasanttomeetyou · Apr 3, 2009

kimsmith said:
Mr Booty and Losthwy are you saying that Affected and Carriers should be fixed so we wouldn't have to worry about EIC. What Genetic disease will be next, do you think we will cause more problems down the line by fixing 60 percent of the FT Labradors. I think that is what was posted that 60 percent were at least carriers. Not trying to get into an argument, but just wondering.

Mr. Booty and Losthwy are saying that you should't breed affected and/or carriers to each other. This could result in affected pups. You could, however, breed Affected dogs and Carriers to dogs that are EIC clear. These breeding would result in 100% Carriers within the litter (Affected X Clear) or a certain percentage of Carriers within the litter (statistics say 50% -- but reality says "to be determined"

....)

This means that prospective Dams and stud dogs need to be tested so you can make educated breeding decisions.

There a lots of clear studs and bitches in the world - so if you have a carrier, you'll have to add EIC clear to your selection priorities.

Just say'in

Is EIC over rated??

kimsmith

ErinsEdge

Angie B

YardleyLabs

kimsmith

YardleyLabs

Angie B

Wyldfire

Cody Covey

kimsmith

Sissi

kimsmith

kimsmith

Franco

Losthwy

Wyldfire

kimsmith

ErinsEdge

Franco

Pheasanttomeetyou

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