Is EIC over rated??

Rick_C · Apr 3, 2009

YardleyLabs said:
**snip** Thus, a carrier like Lean Mac could be bred with no consideration of his carrier status.

Is this a known fact or an assumption based on offspring?

Thanks,

labraiser · Apr 3, 2009

Mr booty,

If you think the sire represents what AKC thinks a lab should be? then did you breed to a lab that fits the current breed standard? I don't know many that have 100 AA points and fit the breed standard?

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

labraiser said:
Mr booty,

If you think the sire represents what AKC thinks a lab should be? then did you breed to a lab that fits the current breed standard? I don't know many that have 100 AA points and fit the breed standard?

It wasn't an easy search. First off, most bench champions do not fit the breed standard. The breeder of my pup and I discussed possible studs via emails for over a year! We both identified a dog that we felt could deliver the Big 3 - health, field talent and good breed conformation. I believe the stud has over 115 AA points currently and still as a good 3-4 years left to compete.

labraiser · Apr 3, 2009

so your saying he has a CC or does he have a CH? or none? Or do you think he fits the breed standard? I just have never seen any trial dogs that fit AKC's written standard. None of mine make it, nor do i want them built like the standard.

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

labraiser said:
so your saying he has a CC or does he have a CH? or none? Or do you think he fits the breed standard? I just have never seen any trial dogs that fit AKC's written standard. None of mine make it, nor do i want them built like the standard.

No, he is an FC AFC. I think he looks the way The Standard intended, not what it is being shown today. A big overboned heavy dog would never make it in Field Trials physically. They'd fall over with a heart attack.

Jacob Hawkes · Apr 3, 2009

I'll just add this. Obviously no affected pups is what everbody wants, but your main sale's pitch shouldn't be an EIC clear litter IMO. It should be about the 2 dogs being bred.

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

Jacob Hawkes said:
I'll just add this. Obviously no affected pups is what everbody wants, but your main sale's pitch shouldn't be an EIC clear litter IMO. It should be about the 2 dogs being bred.

Huh? That reads like a back yard breeder pitch? Again, too many EIC clears out there that one doesn't have to go to a carrier. What desirable traits would a carrier have that couldn't be found in a clear dog?

Guest · Apr 3, 2009

surfgeoD300 said:
the dog just flat out collapsed and died in training, from what i remember was the first retrieve of the day on a 70 deg day (cold for October here in texas. it was devastating for the man, obviously, as well as all of Rambo's fans in the club. if the facts are correct could this have been EIC but no one knew at the time???

What are the facts you are presenting? Would you have ever used the term "collapsed" if you had not heard of EIC? Or would you have said suddenly "dropped dead"?

There are NO facts in the case you are describing.

David, I am sincerely not out to get you personally, but for gawd's sake, you are so dang easy to pick on.

Booty, which of your dogs' pedigrees can you show us that doesn't have a Carrier in it?

Love,

Melanie

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

Melanie Foster said:
Booty, which of your dogs' pedigrees can you show us that doesn't have a Carrier in it?

Love,

Melanie

All pedigrees will have dogs with health problems if that is what you are asking? However, with both sire and dam tested as clear, I'll bet my pickup truck my pup is clear.

Love,

Booty

Cedarswamp · Apr 3, 2009

Rick_C said:
Is this a known fact or an assumption based on offspring?

Thanks,

Lean Mac has an EIC affected offspring listed on OFA which makes him a carrier. Gates and Banner also have affected offspring listed.

Jacob Hawkes · Apr 3, 2009

Mr Booty said:
Huh? That reads like a back yard breeder pitch? Again, too many EIC clears out there that one doesn't have to go to a carrier. What desirable traits would a carrier have that couldn't be found in a clear dog?

Back yard breeder? No.

I'll take an EIC carrier from a stacked pedigree, with good-excellent hips, CNM Clear, normal elbows, and will cerf than a pup who has a litter that's primary selling point is an "EIC Clear Litter" anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Why would you limit the dogs to pick from right now? Yes, 1 day you can move to breeding EIC Clear dogs only or atleast almost only, but today isn't really the day. In the end, it's on the buyer to do their homework to get what they want.

Guest · Apr 3, 2009

Mr Booty said:
No bottleneck with Labs, just too many to choose from that are clear.

Mr Booty said:
All pedigrees will have dogs with health problems if that is what you are asking? However, with both sire and dam tested as clear, I'll bet my pickup truck my pup is clear.

Love,

Booty

I asked if there were any Carriers in any of your dogs' pedigrees. Period. Would any of them be alive if the Carriers had not been bred?

Gotta Dodge Ram 2500 of my own, thanks,

Melanie

kimsmith · Apr 3, 2009

I truly understand where you are coming from Booty and I'm not saying anything is wrong in what you did. Knock on wood, I've never owned a pup with bad hips, bad eyes, hip problems, cnm carrier or one that has gone down with EIC so I've been lucky. I've only seen one go down in the last 10 years missing with dogs and it was one of the nicest dog that I've trained. This dog went 5 for 6 in master and it was my fault the dog failed the 1 test. This dog only went down twice and it was also because I was putting to much pressure on the dog. It just seems hypocritical to think you can get a clean dog by breeding Clear to Clear when there are so many other things that can go wrong. Not saying Clear to Clear wouldn't be great but if a carrier had better traits why would we want to pull them out of the gene pool.

By the way and it might be rumors but I've heard of dogs going down that were tested carriers also.

scott spalding · Apr 3, 2009

If there is so many out there maybe someone could tell me of half a dozen non Lean Mac EIC and CNM clear studs with good hips and elbows and clear eyes. On top of that NFC or NAFC or At the least FC/AFC. I have been looking not coming up with a long list.
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Michigan dispensary

Losthwy · Apr 3, 2009

Jacob Hawkes said:
I'll just add this. Obviously no affected pups is what everbody wants, but your main sale's pitch shouldn't be an EIC clear litter IMO. It should be about the 2 dogs being bred.

How many today would breed your dog to a dog with HD? With all the available dogs out there that are EIC clear why do it? I don't buy into the limited gene pool. I see it as a positive devolvement more and more are asking for EIC and other clearances before breeding. The market will be a guide, for breeders have a choice of clear dogs to breed to. And choose not to breed to EIC and CNM carriers tomorrow just like they don't breed to dogs with HD today.

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

Melanie Foster said:
I asked if there were any Carriers in any of your dogs' pedigrees. Period. Would any of them be alive if the Carriers had not been bred?

Gotta Dodge Ram 2500 of my own, thanks,

Melanie

No but, I don't get your point. Today we have the tools to identify both EIC and CNM. With the amount of clear Labs available, why would anyone want to keep EIC alive? Again, I have to ask; what qualities can only be found in carriers that can't be found in a clear dog?

I understand that with Goldens and Chessies one may have to go with a carrier because of the limited supply of quality field studs but, this is not the case with Labs.

Jacob Hawkes · Apr 3, 2009

Losthwy said:
How many today would breed your dog to a dog with HD? With all the available dogs out there that are EIC clear why do it? I don't buy into the limited gene pool. I see it as a positive devolvement more and more are asking for EIC and other clearances before breeding. The market will be a guide, for breeders have a choice of clear dogs to breed to. And choose not to breed to EIC and CNM carriers tomorrow just like they don't breed to dogs with HD today.

How in god's name can somebody breed their dog to mine without my permission for 1 and who in the world would be dumb enough to breed a bitch to a 10 month old pup?

Read the 2nd post regards.

Franco · Apr 3, 2009

scott spalding said:
If there is so many out there maybe someone could tell me of half a dozen non Lean Mac EIC and CNM clear studs with good hips and elbows and clear eyes. On top of that NFC or NAFC or At the least FC/AFC. I have been looking not coming up with a long list.

Checkout Kip Kemp's(I think he uses the handle Butt Munch here on RTF) dog FC AFC Blue. He not only has all the health clearences, Blue is also choco factored. Lean Mac is his grandsire.

FC AFC Ford has all health clearnences and is a Lean Mac get plus, he is an annual high point dog and has well over 200 AA points.

Jacob Hawkes · Apr 3, 2009

Mr Booty said:
No but, I don't get your point. Today we have the tools to identify both EIC and CNM.

I'll simply ask this and then leave this alone. If there was a test for EIC back in the day, are you saying you wouldn't breed to LM (Lean Mac.) if you had an EIC clear bitch that was good enough to be bred?

scott spalding · Apr 3, 2009

Over the years some very nice EIC clear pups have come from carriers. I find it interesting that we use such high standards in the reproduction of our pets. Many of us were glasses but have children we have heart disease and carry the cancer gene but have children but we won't breed a carier to clear interesting thought process

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Is EIC over rated??

Rick_C

labraiser

Franco

labraiser

Franco

Jacob Hawkes

Franco

Guest

Franco

Cedarswamp

Jacob Hawkes

Guest

kimsmith

scott spalding

Losthwy

Franco

Jacob Hawkes

Franco

Jacob Hawkes

scott spalding

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