Who's tried clicker?

Colonel Blimp · May 4, 2009

Who's tried clicker?

And with what results? Who (still) feels it's inappropriate for gundogs?

Over the last three years I've used clicker to good effect in cleaning up specific problems but never done a pup's basic OB from the get go with it in spite of threatening to do so; lack of opportunity not any reluctance.

Currently I'm working on a Springer from the lunatic tendency, a 21/2 year old male. He's had a season and a half of being a 'keepers "dogging in" machine; many hours a day running free up hedgerows pushing pheasants back into their proper ares. No sit, no heel, no proper recall, nothing on the whistle at all, pulled on the lead. Sensationally fit and strong.

I'm just in week five and he's got a "sit" and "recall" with verbal, whistle, and hand signals, waits at his grub bowl and gates, and casts to left or right. No real distances involved but all solid enough at this stage. Today we started on ignoring a thrown dummy (just wanted to run off and play with it, no retrieve at all) "Heel" will be the next skill on on the agenda.

So overall I'm really chuffed with him; the more clickery things I do and the more I learn about it the technique the better I like it. I've also cured his idiotic barking in the kennel but not with a clicker; I'm not totally averse to aversives!
Any takers?

Eug

PS Baked liver is the canine crack cocaine!

Grasshopper · May 4, 2009

I've never had much long term success with the clicker, though I used it frequently with prior dogs (foxhound and Jack Russel). I think that I did not have high enough click/treat episodes per minute to be really effective.

Knowing what I know now, I would have collar conditioned those dogs and used that for lack of effort in their obedience (read lack of recall). I did some agility with the hound and just basic obedience with the JRT - they were both very well behaved and had good obedience, but were both self employed. The hound would work happily for warm Hardee's french fries, but once they cooled, her nose hit the ground and off she went. I actually rubbed bacon grease on myself one day in a desperate attempt to keep her attention.

Good luck with the clicking - I know some folks use it very effectively.

Kathryn

Fowl Play WA · May 4, 2009

I bought one for my daughter to use in 4-H, not to mark behaviors, but to get Gunner's attention when too much is going on around him. She's too soft spoken to be able to get his focus when dogs are barking, or there's too much noise, but he hears the clicker, and right now he knows that clicker means treats.

I honestly did not want to buy it, but she needed something other than me hovering to get his focus. Her finger snap isn't loud enough at times either so that was out. I would never trust her to use it to mark behaviors, because I know that she would be way off on the timing, but it is working for a purpose entirely different than it was intended for.

Dave Flint · May 4, 2009

I used it on my last dog w/ excellent results. I don’t know how effective it would be on an older dog but since puppies are always hungry, they are especially receptive to using food treats. It’s a very fun approach to teaching basic obedience and I think it helps develop a very good attitude toward training. You can “motivate” a dog to perform at a very high standard w/out impairing his attitude toward work at all.

I only used the clicker/treat method to teach “sit”, “here”, and “heel”. I also used it to refine moving at the line in preparation for lining drills. The key advantage of the clicker is the ability to precisely "mark" the desired response. I have read that a dog is only capable of linking feedback to the action when the feedback occurs w/in 1.3 seconds of the action. This is why the e-collar is more effective than the "tennis shoe" method.

I still took the dog through collar conditioning when he was about 75% reliable at sit & here. I would say that my need to use the collar for corrections has gone down by 80% or more compared to other dogs I’ve trained prior to using this approach. I attribute this to the fact that there is such a large degree of difference in the dogs mind between “correct response = reward” and “incorrect response = burn”. He just makes the right decision the vast majority of the time.

I think many gundog trainers get turned off by the clicker proponents who clam (w/out any apparent evidence) that the use of “punishment” is counter productive. Unfortunately, they throw out the baby w/ the bathwater by overlooking this useful tool.

Best Regards,

Dave

Aussie · May 5, 2009

Eugene,

I thought you had to be communist, gay or suffer from dyslexia to be a clicker trainer. Or at least a husband beater. Joking!!!!

As I will use every resource, oh well.....nearly every resource available, I in fact attended a clicker seminar last weekend held by a German Schutzhund trainer.

I went with the thought if I learn one thing and/or reminded of at least two, I would be happy. Long suffering husband thought it would be a waste of time. Frankly I already used vocal/noise cues for wanted behavior. Maybe he thought so, as it could have been the first time I had been home on a weekend for 6 weeks.

The seminar began with classical and operant conditioning. I silently groaned. Oh no...a basics (cookie) seminar. Second a short description of the trainers experience as World winner Schutzhund trainer and handler in the past which was not "positive" orientated. My head certainly snapped up when she explained one of the reasons to changing her methods, was owning a great dog with hard mouth. One of my dogs had been known for such.

She had a few workshop dogs to work with, naturally due to distance did not bring her own dogs. The improvement was impressive, mind you like any great trainer her timing skills, consistency, wanted behaviors and feedbank were excellent.

I bought a clicker or two. Charged the clicker while feeding the dogs dinner Saturday night. Taught a few novel behaviors. It was so easy!!!!

Two days have only passed, additions to my training journal are not complete.

Click Click Click. Another tool - good+++

Colonel Blimp · May 5, 2009

Aussie,

I thought you had to be communist, gay or suffer from dyslexia to be a clicker trainer

Or worse than any of them ... a European. I did vote Communist once when I lived in the fair City of Glasgow in the 60s, just to stir the pot for the complacent local Labour party. So I am qualified.

Your remark about timing is spot on .. which mine isn't. Or certainly not as good as I'd like. I'm off on a course soon.

Now, I'm teaching my wife the correct body and hand signals to cast a Labrador at distance; a performance as she says that resembles certain Oriental exercise regimes rather too closely. However I'm not sure that RTF is ready for Tai Chi retriever training, so I won't ask the question!

Eug

rmilner · May 5, 2009

Eug,
I have used the clicker a lot over the past 6 or 7 years. I find it great for young puppies. It took me a year or two to get proficient with it. My biggest malpractices were, too slow a click rate (not marking a small enough piece of behavior), too long a session (I now make my employees use a 3 minute timer), and boring the dog.

The place I see the biggest behavior change is in steadying a young dog. I start out with click/treat for sitting quietly for a short dummy toss. Then change to click/send for dummy for sitting quietly for progressively longer time. Works great.

Best Regards,

Jim Drager · May 5, 2009

FWIW here goes.

I have never seen the need to use a clicker. IMHO it is a tool that can be used, but so can your voice, which is more personal, and is always with you, and is "legal" to be used properly in tests, trials or hunting.

I have observed a number of clicker trained dogs. I feel the clicker can be used to help teach certain behaviours, such as sit, down, come etc, aswell as tricks (hold a bottle like a baby, etc)

It is however, based on my observation an awful tool for reinforcement, with the dogs behavour quickly falling apart once you try to apply the click reinforced behaviours in field applications. Once dogs are placed in situations where they realize that there is no food reward, or even verbal feedback, they now must make choices. Without a method to reinforce the command, the dogs quickly learn they have choices and will fall victim to various factors. (land, water, wind, scent, fatigue, etc). In short, they "unlearn" what you have used the clicker to teach them.

If you are serious about having a good gun dog, hunt test dog, field trial dog, don't put your eggs in the clicker basket.

If you want to teach basic behaviours and parlor tricks, click away.

Remember, the choice is supposed be yours, not the dogs.

Jim

Judy Chute · May 6, 2009

Doggin said:
I used it on my last dog w/ excellent results. I don’t know how effective it would be on an older dog but since puppies are always hungry, they are especially receptive to using food treats. It’s a very fun approach to teaching basic obedience and I think it helps develop a very good attitude toward training. You can “motivate” a dog to perform at a very high standard w/out impairing his attitude toward work at all.

I only used the clicker/treat method to teach “sit”, “here”, and “heel”. I also used it to refine moving at the line in preparation for lining drills. The key advantage of the clicker is the ability to precisely "mark" the desired response. I have read that a dog is only capable of linking feedback to the action when the feedback occurs w/in 1.3 seconds of the action. This is why the e-collar is more effective than the "tennis shoe" method.

I still took the dog through collar conditioning when he was about 75% reliable at sit & here. I would say that my need to use the collar for corrections has gone down by 80% or more compared to other dogs I’ve trained prior to using this approach. I attribute this to the fact that there is such a large degree of difference in the dogs mind between “correct response = reward” and “incorrect response = burn”. He just makes the right decision the vast majority of the time.

I think many gundog trainers get turned off by the clicker proponents who clam (w/out any apparent evidence) that the use of “punishment” is counter productive. Unfortunately, they throw out the baby w/ the bathwater by overlooking this useful tool.

Best Regards,

Dave

Great Post...

Judy

Edit: .. "If you want to teach basic behaviours and parlor tricks, click away...."

Proper clicker training goes way beyond the basic behaviours, parlor tricks... Failure of the dog to maintain ...learned behavior..through clicker training is actually the fault of the trainer..not the dog.

The dog should be able to move on to very advanced training (still using the clicker) and successful trialing.

One person might not want to use a particular tool...or even take the time to research and learn how to use it. Another might..and have great success.

Judy (Good thread)

DarrinGreene · May 6, 2009

why not substitute and e collar with a tone feature for the clicker? tone to mark the desired behaviors / stimulation for all the other work?

Aussie · May 6, 2009

DarrinGreene said:
why not substitute and e collar with a tone feature for the clicker? tone to mark the desired behaviors / stimulation for all the other work?

"It" can be anything conditioned to the dog.

Eugene,

Post again after your course.

Remember Skinner:

Skinner says that there are five main obstacles in learning:

People have a fear of failure.
The task is not broken down into small enough steps.
There is a lack of directions.
There is also a lack of clarity in the directions.
Positive reinforcement is lacking.

Skinner suggests that any age-appropriate skill can be taught using five principles to remedy the above problems

Give the learner immediate feedback.
Break down the task into small steps.
Repeat the directions as many times as possible.
Work from the most simple to the most complex tasks.
Give positive reinforcement.

Operant conditioning, we do it all, every day, whatever the reinforcement.

Problem I have, is trying to continue after the click/finish for further commands.

Plus what you cannot reward, you cannot positively reinforce/reward. Praise is thought very low on the scale of positive reinforcement.

Silly me tested this.....dogs were lying about resting. Praised they all looked up. After a while I clicked their responses were note worthy.

Ummm..back to my journal and training after lunch.

Pete · May 6, 2009

Plus what you cannot reward, you cannot positively reinforce/reward. Praise is thought very low on the scale of positive reinforcement

Aussie
The problem with praise is almost everyone muttles it.
even if their timing is precise during training,,,,all the rest of the time they are talking or praising the dog for stupid stuff the rest of the day. So the praise becomes almost meaningless.

I have never trained a persons dog where I didn't have to re-condition the dog to praise. So that the dog can now understand what praise means. and that is to continue the behavior it is being praised for.

Thats why talking to a dog can be harmfull for training even if your not training.
And its why people see good responses using clickers. People don't go around clicking to their dogs all day long like they do talking and making silly sounds to their dog.

If a person can discipline them selves not to talk so much to their dogs,,,you will see just how effective praise can be. Dogs are silent communicators and everything means something or all this stuff means nothing,,,depending on how you have consistantly applied your method.

Pete

Twolabsplus · May 6, 2009

We used a clicker and treats with our vocal dog..... very vocal
dog. Last weekend he passed his first Senior. Wasn't perfect
but he showed improvement by at least 90%. We found out
what we needed to know by entering him and we now know what
we have to work on. The "clicker" was a great training tool for
this dog.

Gun_Dog2002 · May 6, 2009

I use and recommend to clients that a clicker is a great way to start young puppies. It is a great way to help a dog learn to learn and build a mindset for learning. At about 5-6 months I switch to my Tri-Tronics clicker which seems to have a much greater distance and impact on behavior when used correctly.

/Paul

Scott Harris · May 6, 2009

Pete said:
Aussie
The problem with praise is almost everyone muttles it.
even if their timing is precise during training,,,,all the rest of the time they are talking or praising the dog for stupid stuff the rest of the day. So the praise becomes almost meaningless.

I have never trained a persons dog where I didn't have to re-condition the dog to praise. So that the dog can now understand what praise means. and that is to continue the behavior it is being praised for.

Thats why talking to a dog can be harmfull for training even if your not training.
And its why people see good responses using clickers. People don't go around clicking to their dogs all day long like they do talking and making silly sounds to their dog.

If a person can discipline them selves not to talk so much to their dogs,,,you will see just how effective praise can be. Dogs are silent communicators and everything means something or all this stuff means nothing,,,depending on how you have consistantly applied your method.

Pete

Nice post, interesting topic as any tool in your box helps.

Happy Gilmore · May 6, 2009

Are these the same things that the Dirty Dozen used at night to signal friendlies it was safe to move positions? that was until one was mistaken for a German chambering a round?

Lee Marvin - Making Bruce Willis look like a pussy cat...

crackerd · May 6, 2009

CBR KAIE said:
Are these the same things that the Dirty Dozen used at night to signal friendlies it was safe to move positions? that was until one was mistaken for a German chambering a round?...

No, those were "crickets," not to be confused with cricket, as in "it ain't cricket" or the "Howzat!!!" imploring Eug and Ian Botham often gave to Dickie Bird. But since Atkinson ain't around to give a further delineation, here you go:

Cricket: As explained to a foreigner... with credit to Lord Bane
You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.
Each man that's in the side that's in goes out,
and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out.
When they are all out, the side that's out comes in
and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.
Sometimes you get men still in and not out.
When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out,
and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.
There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time
and they decide when the men who are in are out.
When both sides have been in and all the men have been out,
and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in,
including those who are not out, that is the end of the game.

Clicker training--and BF Skinner on behaviourism--would be a wee bit easier to comprehend.

MG

Colonel Blimp · May 6, 2009

Doggin posted

I don’t know how effective it would be on an older dog but since puppies are always hungry, they are especially receptive to using food treats.

None of the dogs I've clickered have been puppies; all were two years and over. All were in need of remedial training to some degree or other, to eradicate undesirable behaviour(s). All reacted very strongly to what I've seen described as "high value" treats.

I normally feed twice daily, so the morning and evening training sessions are given prior to grub time, using baked liver cut into pea sized bits as below. That's enough for a 5 minute session and about 80 repetitions.

Excellent post from Pete.

Eug

Aussie · May 7, 2009

Pete said:
Aussie
The problem with praise is almost everyone muttles it.
even if their timing is precise during training,,,,all the rest of the time they are talking or praising the dog for stupid stuff the rest of the day. So the praise becomes almost meaningless.

I have never trained a persons dog where I didn't have to re-condition the dog to praise. So that the dog can now understand what praise means. and that is to continue the behavior it is being praised for.

Thats why talking to a dog can be harmfull for training even if your not training.
And its why people see good responses using clickers. People don't go around clicking to their dogs all day long like they do talking and making silly sounds to their dog.

If a person can discipline them selves not to talk so much to their dogs,,,you will see just how effective praise can be. Dogs are silent communicators and everything means something or all this stuff means nothing,,,depending on how you have consistantly applied your method.

Pete

Pete,

I thought this is what behavourists etc (or in this thread's case - clicker trainers) called...extinction.

kindakinky · May 7, 2009

Doggin said:
I used it on my last dog w/ excellent results. I don’t know how effective it would be on an older dog but since puppies are always hungry, they are especially receptive to using food treats. It’s a very fun approach to teaching basic obedience and I think it helps develop a very good attitude toward training. You can “motivate” a dog to perform at a very high standard w/out impairing his attitude toward work at all.

I only used the clicker/treat method to teach “sit”, “here”, and “heel”. (/quote]

I don't understand why a person wouldn't use the whistle, instead of the clicker, to teach "sit", "here" and "heel"?

And, with the whistle, you couldn't speak because you have the whistle in your mouth. I don't understand that if you are training field dogs, you would use a clicker when you could use the whistle for the same thing.

Please enlighten me because this is pretty interesting. Instead of blowing the "here" whistle when I set down the feed bowls for 4, 5, 6 week old pups, would it be better to click? Why?

Who's tried clicker?

Colonel Blimp

Grasshopper

Fowl Play WA

Dave Flint

Aussie

Colonel Blimp

rmilner

Jim Drager

Judy Chute

DarrinGreene

Aussie

Pete

Twolabsplus

Gun_Dog2002

Scott Harris

Happy Gilmore

crackerd

Colonel Blimp

Aussie

kindakinky

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