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Senior Test 5/31/09 Northern Flight at Kelley Farms (MN)

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#21 ·
I highly doubt either of those judges would pass or drop a dog based on who was handling it. I DO know either judge will give the benefit of the doubt to the dog and will help a handler, I've been there, both are fair, experienced but not give it away judges either. Don't know who you are or your experience. Don't know where you were observing from or what the no-go situation was or anything else, but I don't believe either dog was judged soley as you described it with no other factors. Judges hear/see things at the line that the gallery does not, unless you were in the holding blind ready to run and could see/hear exactly what the judges did. Possibly there was more noise/creeping with Dog A than either judge was comfortable with, or who knows. I will ask the guys that were there at training tonight, as well as the pro that was helping/watching (and chewing butt afterwards) for them. I know about the first series setup from their descriptions and that the test was reset after an early dog hit an obstacle, first several dogs reran. My opinion of the judges, anyway, and I've run under both multiple times and no, I don't always, or even often, pass.
 
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#23 ·
Labs said:
Dog A was handled by an am and was dropped because they scored him 0 for trainability...dog B carried and passed...handled by a local pro
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One thinks that there must be more to the story. One also hates to see a judge tossed under the bus on the 'net, even indirectly.
 
#24 ·
Taking a lunch break here on my new labtop with wireless, thought I'd check things out. I think the judges were generous to call back and pass as many wild and out of control dogs as they did. Many of the non-slip retrievers present seemed to be slipping a lot. A few looked really good and will do well at the next level and perhaps beyond.

I am likely the local pro in question and I will probably regret commenting. I would like to say that I would never expect a judge to do me any favors, bend the rules for me, or anything of that nature. I respect the rules and the rule book and I would like to earn my ribbons. When I get dropped I look at what the dog and I did wrong and what we need to work on. I am thankfull there are people that give back by judging only to get slammed afterwards.

As long as I'm on a role I'd like to say there are way too many people that incorrectly place blame for dogs not passing. The idea that there are a lot of politics in this game is way overrated. The idea that judges are personally out to get you or your dog is not true a very large percent of the time. I think it might be a good idea to look at yourself and your dog, and figure out your weaknesses, then go train. There are people like myself whiling to help, information is widely available via DVD's, books, etc.

If anyone wants to personally discuss this with me give me a call.
Tim Springer
612-418-3420
 
#26 ·
Don't know the one judge but I do know the long haired one. I can tell you that he didn't allow anything but the teams performance influence the decision.

That bus is outta gas regards

Bubba
 
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#27 ·
Tim;

Not sure what Labs dog did to fail but I am curious.....

If you are the pro in question (not that it matters who you are) did, in your opinion, your dog no-go you twice???
 
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#28 ·
Bubba said:
Don't know the one judge but I do know the long haired one. I can tell you that he didn't allow anything but the teams performance influence the decision.

That bus is outta gas regards

Bubba
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LOL, got his hair cut, unless he grew it out again over the winter. Agree with you x 10 otherwise.
 
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#29 ·
TS said:
Taking a lunch break here on my new labtop with wireless, thought I'd check things out. I think the judges were generous to call back and pass as many wild and out of control dogs as they did. Many of the non-slip retrievers present seemed to be slipping a lot. A few looked really good and will do well at the next level and perhaps beyond.

I am likely the local pro in question and I will probably regret commenting. I would like to say that I would never expect a judge to do me any favors, bend the rules for me, or anything of that nature. I respect the rules and the rule book and I would like to earn my ribbons. When I get dropped I look at what the dog and I did wrong and what we need to work on. I am thankfull there are people that give back by judging only to get slammed afterwards.

As long as I'm on a role I'd like to say there are way too many people that incorrectly place blame for dogs not passing. The idea that there are a lot of politics in this game is way overrated. The idea that judges are personally out to get you or your dog is not true a very large percent of the time. I think it might be a good idea to look at yourself and your dog, and figure out your weaknesses, then go train. There are people like myself whiling to help, information is widely available via DVD's, books, etc.

If anyone wants to personally discuss this with me give me a call.
Tim Springer
612-418-3420
Click to expand...
Good for you, Tim. Aren't ya glad you came home for the summer?!
 
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#30 ·
Knowing and judging with both these people as well as being head of the committee that paired them, I will say without reservation that they will err on the side of the dog and will give EVERYONE the same consideration regardless of who or what they run and will be generous when judging the Senior level dogs and will NOT bend any rule for any dog or any person.

Gallery bitching will always be with us much like pesty black flies and other obnoxous critters. Use enough Off and pretty soon they become just noise to be ignored.

And one more thing. Knowing how tough it is to set a test and judge it, I find it quite offensive when the " I'm a judge too" people feel free to slam or pick apart their fellow judges. There is enough of that from the people who feel every test they don't get through is a bad, tricky, unfair ect., ect., test. It shouldn't come from judges, either in the gallery or on a forum board.
 
#31 ·
I know Tim and I also know judges invovled. Both very standup people. I highly doubt any funny business between them.

I also saw way to many dogs at this test that had controlability/trainability problems. I also know the judges that are involved will not put up with it at that level.

Train don't complain, I did not pass master: not judges fault or my dogs they had a situation that I have never trained for. All dogs from our training group dropped on the same setup, obviously something we have never encountered.

BTW; Golddogs, one hell of a weekend!!!
 
#32 ·
Having judged Tim ,on more than one occasion, I can say he is one of the most courtious and honorable dog people I have had the pleasure to meet. I suggest you take him up on his offer. Call him and train smarter and be better prepared next time.
 
#33 ·
TS said:
...I think the judges were generous to call back and pass as many wild and out of control dogs as they did. Many of the non-slip retrievers present seemed to be slipping a lot. A few looked really good and will do well at the next level and perhaps beyond....
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Thanks for commenting Tim. Based on the FIRST scenario presented (no details, JUST the scenario), I'd still carry the first dog and excuse the second one. That said, it wasn't my call on that day so we have to go with what they decided. As Vicki said, on that day, it was THEIR call.

Perhaps this point deserves another thread of its own, but are judges TRULY being generous when they pass "...as many wild and out of control dogs as they did?" Granted, Junior and Senior dogs are supposed to get a degree of lenience that a Master dog is not supposed to get (look it up in the regs/guidelines, Josh...:cool:)...but IMHO one of the inconsistencies that happen in AKC HTs are when one set pair of judges will DROP a wild and out of control dog (as they should) and another pair will pass them because they are giving them "the benefit of the doubt." I'm not sure we're sending the correct signal when we let that happen. I have SERIOUS doubts as to how well those dogs will do in the Master level when a GREATER degree of control is expected, and lesser showings of control will NOT be dealt with lightly.

"Control" is one of the traits that a dog must show to keep itself and its handler SAFE....forget passing the test. I don't want a "wild and out of control" dog hunting with me or near me while hunting, much less running a test. Passing dogs that don't show the degree of control that is appropriate for the test level in which they are entered does no one any favors. Benefit of the doubt becomes disregard for the Standard.

As always, JMHO....

kg
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Just so we are clear...I had no vested interest in this test. I was simply observing a senior test, and the situation that I described made me wonder why Dog B was carried, when it clearly 'no go'd' twice...If the judges dropped both dogs, it would have been a moot point.....I didn't conclude or even make reference that the judges were out to get anyone or their dog, but one has to wonder why dog B was carried to the next series....I got my question answered in the first page of replies...

KG...nice insight
 
#37 · (Edited)
Good post Tim, nice to see people stand up for themselves. You seem like a quality guy. That being said, I too am curious about your opinion in this case. You never did comment on the situation. Do you think the decision was fair and accurate? I am not placing blame, just looking for a good first person account. It seems a lot of people jumping to defend the judges, but you being one of the people in question, seems like you should have one of the best perspectives. Thanks


Wes
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
duk4me said:
Now wait a minute don't I get credit for being the only one getting the answer right?:razz:

The other Tim
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You would carry a dog to the next series on a no-go?? Or did you already see the reason for the post before I gave out the answer?

Ok...let's suppose for a minute that I didn't see Dog A run, and had no knowledge of that dogs work and only witnessed Dog B run....my question stands at this....How do you carry a dog that no go's a blind??

I saw this happen at another test in MN a couple of weeks ago, and guess what...that dog happened to be handled by a pro. The dog subsequently took itself out during the next series, but why are judges carrying dogs that no go blinds, when the rules are quite clear.
 
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