There was a breeder who recently advertised a litter on this site. I contacted him and several other breeders, some of whom also advertised their litters on this site. The breeder in question wanted $1,200 for his pups which was in line with what others were asking for similar pedigrees. However, when I inquired as to the specifics of his health guarantee, he did not cover the pups' hearts. I pressed the issue and he said he would cover the heart of my pup alone...for an extra $300. I really felt this was out of line as either you stand behind your pups or you don't. I've also personally seen pups (including a $2,000 pup) from top level breeding have to be put down due to congenital heart defects. Given that both the sire and the dam already had heart clearances, this breeder had little risk and not one cent more in seeing to it that the sire and the dam had healthy hearts. Of the half-dozen or so breeders I contacted, he was the only one who made a stink over this issue and did not cover the hearts at the regular price. Needless to say, I thought it was really shady and felt I couldn't trust the breeder on much of anything at that point. Has anyone else here heard of or dealt with this kind of scenario? I already have a pup from another breeder that I've been very pleased with but that guy's attitude really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Opinion on breeder
J. Walker
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
There was a breeder who recently advertised a litter on this site. I contacted him and several other breeders, some of whom also advertised their litters on this site. The breeder in question wanted $1,200 for his pups which was in line with what others were asking for similar pedigrees. However, when I inquired as to the specifics of his health guarantee, he did not cover the pups' hearts. I pressed the issue and he said he would cover the heart of my pup alone...for an extra $300. I really felt this was out of line as either you stand behind your pups or you don't. I've also personally seen pups (including a $2,000 pup) from top level breeding have to be put down due to congenital heart defects. Given that both the sire and the dam already had heart clearances, this breeder had little risk and not one cent more in seeing to it that the sire and the dam had healthy hearts. Of the half-dozen or so breeders I contacted, he was the only one who made a stink over this issue and did not cover the hearts at the regular price. Needless to say, I thought it was really shady and felt I couldn't trust the breeder on much of anything at that point. Has anyone else here heard of or dealt with this kind of scenario? I already have a pup from another breeder that I've been very pleased with but that guy's attitude really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Joined
·
2,631 Posts
Not trying to be argumentative, but if the breeder has had heart clearances done on both parents, has he not done all in his power to ensure that the pups will have healthy hearts? If so, why should he guarantee something that is beyond his control? If you were to buy a pup from him and it had a bad heart, should the breeder be liable? If so, why?
As I said, I'm not trying to be difficult, I just would like to hear people's ideas about this. It seems like many folks expect to be guaranteed a perfect puppy but there's no such thing. If a breeder does everything in his power to produce healthy pups, I'm not sure I see a liability if someone buys a pup that winds up with health issues that could not have been reasonably avoided.
As I said, I'm not trying to be difficult, I just would like to hear people's ideas about this. It seems like many folks expect to be guaranteed a perfect puppy but there's no such thing. If a breeder does everything in his power to produce healthy pups, I'm not sure I see a liability if someone buys a pup that winds up with health issues that could not have been reasonably avoided.
Joined
·
1,166 Posts
In my experience, different breeders have different things that they guarantee (warranty would be a better word). It varies widely. Rather than discuss on some public forum, it's far better to decide what you do and don't want in a puppy guarantee, and if any particular breeder does not meet your criteria, simply move on. There are plenty of litters out there, at really good prices. No need to beat up one particular breeder on the internet; there is plenty to choose from out there, thanks to the economy.
Lisa
Lisa
Joined
·
7,955 Posts
I don't get this. If you don't agree with the breeder on a price, move on. It's a business transaction that you make or don't make. It's your responsibility to do your homework on the breeding & breeder/their guarantees. Buyer beware market if you will. You didn't buy the pup so you have no complaint.
Joined
·
864 Posts
You are buying a living, breathing life form. Not a freak'n car. If the breeder has obtained the clearances that you are looking for what else is there to guarantee?
Joined
·
3,001 Posts
A couple things on this . One, Im impressed the original breeder had their dogs' heart clearances. Not something you regularly see , especially with field dogs. 2nd, Im surprised that you had half a dozen breeders offer guarantees vs heart defects. I dont think I've ever seen that with any breeders' guarantee except my own . Lucky enough to see a guarantee (field breeders) that covers elbows in addition to the Hips and eyes and elbow dysplasias been around a really long time. Glad you found a pup!
Joined
·
6,462 Posts
this is why I have one friend who offers no guarantees. Because people get ridiculous- and when there has been a problem - which has not been often, she just does the right thing. sometimes "stuff" just happens.
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
You're not trying to be argumentative?
You're making my point for me. IF the breeder has the health clearances on the dam (while the sire's owners got the clearances on the sire), to me, you put your money where your mouth is and guarantee against the major congenital defects involving the heart, hips, eyes, and elbows. You're saying the breeder shouldn't be responsible. So the buyer should be out $1,200 while the breeder lines his pocket and has no accountability whatsoever, is that how it should work? I wasn't talking about a "perfect pup" and never even implied that. Did I mention anything about complete conformation to the breed standard? I didn't even bring that up. I was talking about a pup that wouldn't end up with crippling CHD or elbow dysplasia, blinding PRA or possibly fatal SAS. Those major things are hardly expecting a "perfect pup." Providing firm assurances (a guarantee) should come with the territory when a breeder is grossing $12,000+ from a litter, don't you think? I know how I would do it and charging people more for peace of mind regarding their pup not dropping dead during exercise is NOT how I would handle things. I'm honestly shocked that I see people defending the breeder in question.
Joined
·
1,658 Posts
It seems to me that more and more people expect the breeder to be God. The parents were tested, the breeder did his part to ensure a healthy breeding. But there are NO 100% failsafe guarantees about the health of any living being. Any dog can develop a heart condition, whether the parents had any or not. The breeder tested for this, which is fairly unusual in field dogs. He did his part. If you want some sort of 100% guarantee of health, good luck!
Joined
·
907 Posts
I believe that the first statement covers Providing Assurances.... As for a Guarantee... umm, its a living animal, sometimes anomalies happen. You think the Breeder should take full responisbility for all health problems, and financial loss?
Most people will tell you that a responsible breeder that does all the necessary tests and vetrinary visits, an early puppy care, etc, may GROSS $12,000, but they NET a whole lot less than that.
Joined
·
5,856 Posts
I offer 2 prices on my puppies. One with a guarantee and one without. I have yet to have anyone buy the guarantee...
I have all documented health clearances. My litter is either for you or not. I will not be held accountable for defects on a dog that is outside my care for 2 years.
It's an animal. There is a margin of risk owning that dog that the owner has to assume.
In my opinion puppy guarantee's were developed to sell puppies. People treat a guarantee like a "Good Housekeeping seal of approval". It is anything but.... Many guarantees have loopholes that keep the breeder from making good on their contract. Like returning the dog before getting a refund or replacing the puppy... Guess what,,, that ain't an option for 7/8's of the puppy owners.
FWIW
Angie
I have all documented health clearances. My litter is either for you or not. I will not be held accountable for defects on a dog that is outside my care for 2 years.
It's an animal. There is a margin of risk owning that dog that the owner has to assume.
In my opinion puppy guarantee's were developed to sell puppies. People treat a guarantee like a "Good Housekeeping seal of approval". It is anything but.... Many guarantees have loopholes that keep the breeder from making good on their contract. Like returning the dog before getting a refund or replacing the puppy... Guess what,,, that ain't an option for 7/8's of the puppy owners.
FWIW
Angie
Joined
·
1,243 Posts
you say put your money where your mouth is. and then speak of how much a breeder makes per litter. Maybe you haven't bred a litter and haven't looked into how much it costs. The tests aren't cheap and the care and time from the breeder comes at a cost. The breeder is this area that i have had quite a bit of contact with will only breed in the off season of her work she spends so much time doing things with and for the pup.
not a cheap endeavor regards ....
not a cheap endeavor regards ....
Joined
·
1,055 Posts
But the breeder has already done EVERYTHING THEY CAN at this day and age to prevent the health problem by only breeding dogs with clearances. How can they do any better on that?
If a puppy develops a hereditary defect, whose fault is it? The breeder already did everything they can to prevent it. The owner certainly didn't do it. Well, I guess God did it, but that does that mean the breeder should pay for it?
If you are saying, you were bothered and thought it was weird that he would guarantee for hips but NOT guarantee for hearts, then I agree, that's a little weird, provided he has clearances for both. But then again -- there are lots of litters to choose from, if something makes you uncomfortable, just move on.
The breeder I got Fisher from (6 yr old golden, sire was #1 golden in the country -- Fisher now is a CH/UD) had no health guarantee. Explicitly stated in my puppy contract was "The breeder has attempted all efforts to prevent genetic disease by clearing the parents of this litter for hips, elbows, eyes and hearts. Therefore no guarantee against these maladies is given."
--Anney
Joined
·
615 Posts
I need to find a FT trainer that guarantees a NFC on my young 6 month old pup. He should not profit on my 1000's of $ investment.
Joined
·
348 Posts
If you have never raised a litter , i will say there is NO lining your pockets .
1. If you have done all the testing on your dogs (sire & dam) OFA hips/elbows , eyes , CNM , EIC , Heart . your out a lot already .
2. If you raise a healthy litter , dew claw removal , worming , Vet checks , health certs , introduced them to water , birds , gunfire and started crate training .
Figure up how many hours you have in them , from time of breeding , stud fee , delivery , 7 to 8 weeks of daily care and vet bills . Now multiply your hours by what you make at work on an houtly rate . And i think you will see no one trying to raise a good quality pup , and putting in the time to take care of them so the buyer recieves a healthy pup is getting rich .(JMO)
1. If you have done all the testing on your dogs (sire & dam) OFA hips/elbows , eyes , CNM , EIC , Heart . your out a lot already .
2. If you raise a healthy litter , dew claw removal , worming , Vet checks , health certs , introduced them to water , birds , gunfire and started crate training .
Figure up how many hours you have in them , from time of breeding , stud fee , delivery , 7 to 8 weeks of daily care and vet bills . Now multiply your hours by what you make at work on an houtly rate . And i think you will see no one trying to raise a good quality pup , and putting in the time to take care of them so the buyer recieves a healthy pup is getting rich .(JMO)
Joined
·
2,631 Posts
You're not trying to be argumentative?
Sorry if I pissed you off. I was simply offering my opinion and asking for the opinions of others. I even asked you for your reasoning behind holding the breeder accountable for a heart defect if the breeder tested both dogs to the limits of current medical technology.
If you just wanted to come here to rant and have everyone validate your opinion, maybe you should have told us that to begin with and we could have decided if we wanted to participate. If you think a breeder is selling puppies simply to make a profit with no concern for the health of the pups or for the satisfaction of the buyer, you shouldn't do business with that person. For myself, if I feel like a potential buyer wants more guarantee than I'm willing to give and is resentful if I make money off a litter, I think I'll decline from doing business with that person. Free will and free markets.
Joined
·
367 Posts
And you never said anything about getting titles on the dog, not just hunt test but any of the titles are expensive. If a breeder grosses 12 K on a litter, it just means he is closer to getting out of the red. I will guarantee that.
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
