What would you do if this happened in a test?

subroc · Aug 2, 2009

ChrisRobt said:
Earlier this week, while running a water mark with one of my dogs, the dog ran under some blackberry brambles and got stuck. He stopped and looked back at me so I called him back, gingerly removed the brambles he had picked up and resent him. I then started wondering what might happen if this happened in a test? The dog ran perhaps 4 feet to the right of the true line to the bird and tried to duck under the brambles. I've been in a couple tests where my dog came in from a mark trailing nasty brambles and have been given permission by the judge to remove them before sending the dog for the next mark. In this case, the dog was stuck and had to back out to get free.

Christine

2 things
The safety of my dog comes first. If he got hung up in something that required me to free him up, I would leave the line and free him up in a heartbeat regardless of the outcome.

If he freed himself from the brambles, I expect I would just handle him to the mark (assuming it was a handling test and not a junior/started test). We are assuming the dog wasn’t being a baby. Letting a bramble that was just hanging off his coat distract him from the task at hand, in my view, would be reason enough for disqualification. However, if it appeared that the brambles were causing a problem, clearly imbedded in the hide or skin or impeding his ability to continue for some physical reason, I would call him in and remove them. I would check with the judge and see if he/she thought the situation warranted another chance. If not, I would just load my dog.

This would be a situation where I felt it was crucial to remove them and the judge didn’t. No harm, no foul.

John Kelder · Aug 2, 2009

Richard Halstead said:
Suck it up and say we'll get them next time, or get a dog who's hair is not like velcro.

I have never seen chocolate velcro .LOL

J. Walker · Aug 2, 2009

I've been watching the exchanges here and they've been interesting. I was running my late Golden in a Junior test in Virginia so we're talking young and largely inexperienced dogs. One of the judges was a fair guy who seemed to always set up good, fair tests at all levels: not easy but not tricked up either. There was a water test in which the original set-up had one of the birds being launched behind a big thicket on a hillside. Fortunately, one guy noticed that the thicket was all briars (I mean Br'er Rabbit type briars.) If the bird were launched even semi-consistently, every dog was going to have to plow through what was impossible to plow through. I wouldn't have tried it with snake boots and briar chaps and I'm not kidding. Anyway, the one guy pretty much went off on the judge before the test. They apparently knew each other but the handler said something like "Bill (or whatever the judge's name was), this is a ridiculous test! We shouldn't have to send dogs into a situation we KNOW has a high potential for injury while they STILL won't be able to get through the stuff!" At first, the judge got defensive and said something like "Then don't run my tests, Steve!" Things were tense but then the test dog ran, got hung up in the briars but finally was able to back out and then ran around the thicket. To the judge's credit, he ate some crow, apologized to the handlers, and changed the test. Reason prevailed.

dnf777 · Aug 3, 2009

Miriam Wade said:
My dog ran and just couldn't (literally) get over the log & she tried time and time again. Finally, she went around, got back on line & finished the blind, but we failed the test-despite very good work up to that point. Several (very good) dogs did exactly the same thing.

I'm more objective than I used to be about the use of obstacles, terrain, etc and the true line to the blind, but judges really need to be sure that a dog who isn't as athletic as it once was can safely complete the test if she has the desire to give it her best. If I'm wrong-someone will tell me -I'm sure!

M

M

If I understand, there was a large log IN the water? That's an interesting point you make. I think if a dog has shown the courage and training to hold a line, into water, right up to an obstacle to the point of several efforts to overcome, but physically can't, has shown the courage and style to satisfy the purpose of the test. We're not testing agility, per se. From what you describe, the dog met the challenge, but just couldn't physically surmount it. The fact that it gave an effort PRIOR to circumventing the obstacle, shows that it was doing the right thing.

Steve Peacock · Aug 3, 2009

One thing I see that isn't really being discussed, was the hazard on line to the bird (judges fault) or was the hazard off line where the dog should be (dogs fault). Makes a difference in how I would judge the situation. Having said that, the dogs safety should be paramount, don't set something up that can harm the dog. If the dog gets itself into danger, do what ever it takes to get the dog out. Dogs should be able to handle terrain hazards, heavy cover, mud, running water, etc. But don't put the dog through brambles, briars, unseen ditches, etc. These are a accident in the making.

ChrisRobt · Aug 3, 2009

Steve Peacock said:
One thing I see that isn't really being discussed, was the hazard on line to the bird (judges fault) or was the hazard off line where the dog should be (dogs fault). Makes a difference in how I would judge the situation. Having said that, the dogs safety should be paramount, don't set something up that can harm the dog. If the dog gets itself into danger, do what ever it takes to get the dog out. Dogs should be able to handle terrain hazards, heavy cover, mud, running water, etc. But don't put the dog through brambles, briars, unseen ditches, etc. These are a accident in the making.

In the training situation I described, we were about 15 yards from the water's edge; there was tall grass at water's edge and a break in the grass maybe 3 feet to the left of the true line to the mark (second bird of a triple). What the dog could not see was the arching dead blackberry vines in this opening. The dog took the path through the brambles and ended up dragging a four foot piece of bramble twisted in his ear and topknot back to me. I doubt he could have completed the retrieve with this in his hair. I guess in a test I would have to pick him up and say "thank you", but would probably try to handle him first

Steve Peacock · Aug 3, 2009

ChrisRobt said:
In the training situation I described, we were about 15 yards from the water's edge; there was tall grass at water's edge and a break in the grass maybe 3 feet to the left of the true line to the mark (second bird of a triple). What the dog could not see was the arching dead blackberry vines in this opening. The dog took the path through the brambles and ended up dragging a four foot piece of bramble twisted in his ear and topknot back to me. I doubt he could have completed the retrieve with this in his hair. I guess in a test I would have to pick him up and say "thank you", but would probably try to handle him first

3 Feet off the line to the bird, I wouldn't blame the dog, still on line. If that were the situation at a test, I'd blame the judges for poor set up. But you have to do whatever you need to take care of the dog and make sure it is not hurt.

Gun_Dog2002 · Aug 3, 2009

I don't know where you all hunt, but out here in the west we are not allowed to hunt golf courses. There are numerous things a hunting dog has to navigate. I don't care how thick the brush is, a dog that gives up his hunt fails in perseverance. I have never seen a judge purposely setup a test with the intent to harm a dog, with that being said the conditions of a normal days hunt does put dogs at risk. Life is risky, it will lead to death. A master hunter should be able to deal with it without giving up.

/Paul

brandywinelabs · Aug 3, 2009

It is always hard to envision the circumstance. Too me it seems that a dog that was trying, and got stuck or wasn't able to get over the obstacle and either figures out a way around or works with the handler to get around the obstacle, has probably done a credible job. And if this obstacle was offline, did they work together as a team and recover and do a credible job on the rest of the blind? Seems to me there is something regarding this in the rules.
As far as calling your dog back and resending. That should depend on whether there is any suspicion of injury having cocured or occuring by continuing. Is the dog still willing to do the work after being resent?

Chris Atkinson · Aug 3, 2009

I know I should stay off the machine at this point. (I've posted enough in this thread, plus I'm supposed to be goofing around on WI Dells waterslides, not postong on the net)

I will stay off this thread, after this post.

My point to Christine is that it is irrelevant what RTF folks would "do" based upon their own mental picture that their minds' eyes see, from the written paragraphs. What matters is that most all would agree to evaluate the situation live, on the spot, as it unfolds, and do what's right.

I tend to bristle a bit when I see "black and white" interpretations of what a judge should do based upon hypothetical scenarios that are clearly outside of the letter of any rulebook. The considerations needed to make the "right call" are too broad for anyone to make a call based upon text on the net.

I liken this (as more than one of you will recall from my past RTF posts) to the major disappointment that most all but Thornton Mellon feel when a movie is made from a well-read novel.

A novel is text, and each reader has his/her own personal mental image of what's happening. It is up to personal interpretation and the connection between the reader and the author's written words. When you insert script-writers, directors, actors, etc... the final product rarely if ever meets what the reader "saw" in his mind.

Such is the case with written test/trial scenarios. Live it, see it, be the ball Danny Noonan....

Only then will you know what call YOU would make.

Chris

ChrisRobt · Aug 3, 2009

Chris, thanks for the thoughtful reply; the reason I posted my query was that it was something I encountered in a training session that was unusual and I was wondering how a situation like this might be judged My dogs have gotten caught in blackberries before (my problem for having velcro dogs); once in a test, Nike came in with a bramble wrapped around her. I took the bird and the judges told me I could untangle her before sending her on the next mark. I've enjoyed this discussion

lablover · Aug 3, 2009

with all of those grounds, couldn't/shouldn't the judges move that mark so as to remove the hazard?

What would you do if this happened in a test?

subroc

John Kelder

J. Walker

dnf777

Steve Peacock

ChrisRobt

Steve Peacock

Gun_Dog2002

brandywinelabs

Chris Atkinson

ChrisRobt

lablover

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