"Ping Ponging" bliind??

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

I'll bring you up to speed...I have a blm that's 20 month's. He went to a trainers for 3 mo's when he was 9 mo's. Came back force fetched, doing doubles, through his t-drill, and doing pattern blinds. I've been training him 4-5 days a week for about 20 mins a session. We've got through cold blinds on land and water, and his shore breaking is done.

My problem......I've always ran his cold blinds under a 150 yards. I've been training with a field trial trainer on the weekends and they don't mess around with the blinds. I guess all I can say is the blinds are alot more than a 150 yards. Sometimes Grizz gets out there and I toot the whistle and have to ask if Grizz is even looking at me. I can barely tell if he is or not with the distance. When sweet little baby ounce Grizz gets out there a couple hundred yards when I hit the whistle and cast him on a back he will sometimes swim over. When I hit the whistle again he may go back or may do the over the opposite way. It's like he forgets everything. He sort of "ping pongs" back and forth a few times till he finally goes where I directed. Is this the standard effect on these young fella's? Do I just keep doing it till everything clicks? I've been lengthening him out, but every other day he will "ping pong." Maybe he thinks he knows where the bird is instead of me???

JusticeDog · Aug 21, 2009

Your dog is telling you he's unsure of himself when he's ping-ponging like that.... imagine a wall that's been put up... because he his mind, that's what is there... he's uncomfortable at that distance. If you have any way to move up so that the distance between you and him is shorter, you'll find he moves back a little easier.. Stretch him out very gradually, you can even throw a few sight blinds in there.. Teach, and don't burn in these situations.

copterdoc · Aug 21, 2009

I would move up. Don't be afraid to admit that something is over your dog's head.

I would also ask somebody to coach me on whether or not I was doing enough to make sure I was visible to the dog, when the cast refusals started.

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

JusticeDog said:
Your dog is telling you he's unsure of himself when he's ping-ponging like that.... imagine a wall that's been put up... because he his mind, that's what is there... he's uncomfortable at that distance. If you have any way to move up so that the distance between you and him is shorter, you'll find he moves back a little easier.. Stretch him out very gradually, you can even throw a few sight blinds in there.. Teach, and don't burn in these situations.

I guess i'm not sure how else I can teach him to follow my lead. I've got him swimming a couple hundred yards on pattern blinds. (blinds we have run before) Like I said I have been working on lengthening him. He just ping pongs on me sometimes. When I was at the trainers doing the blinds I did move way up, and have slowly increased his starting point. Last time I was there I had Grizz watch the trainer throw all the bumpers to where the dogs were sent then put Grizz away. The trainer ran a few dogs then I ran Grizz.

As far as "burns" go. Grizz is a little on the soft side so i've never given him anything over a 3 on his collar. I've never had him yelp. He gets the point.

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

copterdoc said:
I would move up. Don't be afraid to admit that something is over your dog's head.

I would also ask somebody to coach me on whether or not I was doing enough to make sure I was visible to the dog, when the cast refusals started.

I have no problem admitting when something is over Grizz' head. I'm not in a hurry to train him or try stuff on him that he might not know or is too complicated on him. Grizz and I got our JH title 4 for 4 this year. People told me run him on Seniors and he would be fine. I myself think when he's ready for the Master test stuff then i'll run him on the Senior stuff. When we're at the trainer's I always watch him run his dogs to see where Grizz might have problems or where something might come up to be prepared for it. I always make sure i'm visable for Grizz staying out of shadows and what have you's. Just not sure how to go about the "ping ponging" issue??

copterdoc · Aug 21, 2009

Matt's Grizz said:
I have no problem admitting when something is over Grizz' head. I'm not in a hurry to train him or try stuff on him that he might not know or is too complicated on him. Grizz and I got our JH title 4 for 4 this year. People told me run him on Seniors and he would be fine. I myself think when he's ready for the Master test stuff then i'll run him on the Senior stuff.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as an accusation.

I have never seen a 150+ yard blind at a Senior level hunt test.

Bob Gutermuth · Aug 21, 2009

If Grizz gets comfortable running big league blinds the ones in senior will be childs play. I have always run my H/T dogs on long blinds for that reason, and for conditioning purposes.

I don't know how you cast him when he starts to ping pong, I was taught to make sure that all casts weree straight up backs to try and keep the dog in a more or less straight line.

TroyFeeken · Aug 21, 2009

As a fairly new trainer, only 3 years in the game, I've found running blinds as something a mentor is definitely needed. Someone standing near by to give you feedback and advise. All these training materials and seminars available these days take you through the basics and some advanced marking skills but being able to read a dog and understand what they're telling you is something only time and experience will give. Ask for help any time you can. Also, take notes or start a training journal so you can sit down at the end of the week or every couple days and sit and think about what the dog has shown you and what you can do to help the dog along.

Scott Parker · Aug 21, 2009

I've been running my young dog on long blinds also like was said before it's good to move up with him to get started and then increase the distance between you as he gets more confidence. I also always ware a long sleeve white shirt when I'm running long blinds and if there is a mound around to stand on I'll use that to anything to increase your viability.

JusticeDog · Aug 21, 2009

Matt- if you're doing all of those things ie: moving up,etc, and you are getting an occassional ping pong, you're doing the right things.... he must needs more of it.... 1000 blinds from now, you'll never remember he had an issue...

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

copterdoc said:
I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as an accusation.

I have never seen a 150+ yard blind at a Senior level hunt test.

Didn't take it as an accusation...No apology necessary! Just trying to answer questions as I get'em. I know the hunt tests don't run the big blinds. Maybe some day when we get done with the hunt test's and Grizz shows me he can run the big stuff with I might do the field trial thing. I think the competitive side would be fun.

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

Bob Gutermuth said:
If Grizz gets comfortable running big league blinds the ones in senior will be childs play. I have always run my H/T dogs on long blinds for that reason, and for conditioning purposes.

I don't know how you cast him when he starts to ping pong, I was taught to make sure that all casts weree straight up backs to try and keep the dog in a more or less straight line.

I figure next summer i'll get the Senior title on the boy. He should be more than ready by then. I heard the same thing about the casting. Sometimes he just swims/runs past where he needs to be then the dreaded "ping pong" comes out.

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

JusticeDog said:
Matt- if you're doing all of those things ie: moving up,etc, and you are getting an occassional ping pong, you're doing the right things.... he must needs more of it.... 1000 blinds from now, you'll never remember he had an issue...

I know eventually this problem will go away. My goal will be 500 blinds from now he'll figure it out........Gotta have a goal......

JKL · Aug 21, 2009

You should be asking the pro you are training with. That's what your training fee takes care of. Take advantage of your time spent with the big guy. He is very good about answering questions like this. He knows dogs and he knows what to expect when he sets a test.

paul young · Aug 21, 2009

at 20 months of age, you SHOULD be following along behind the dog on long blinds. they should also be land blinds.

keep the water blinds within his comfort range for now, but teach the concepts. (shoreline, over the point, past the point, etc.) when he's showing confidence on the long (300 yard plus) land blinds without you following him, start extending his water blinds.

this process takes as long as it takes, but may take less time than you might think, if you go about it correctly.

as was said, ask the pro you're working with and listen to him. good luck!-Paul

Evan · Aug 21, 2009

copterdoc said:
I have never seen a 150+ yard blind at a Senior level hunt test.

So what? Don't place artificial limits on distance due to some hunt test. Run BB Blinds starting very close and with white bumpers. As he starts bearing down on his lines, and running with style and momentum, session-by-session, gradually extend distance without regard to limiting the distance, and switch to orange bumpers fairly early. In the end you should have him charging out on committed lines at around 300 yards or so.

The run some Gradient blinds, Tune Up drills, etc. What have you done in the way of transitional drills to get tihs dog going on cold blinds?

Evan

short retired · Aug 21, 2009

A rule of thumb I use is if I am deciding if my dog can run a blind is, can he do this as a mark. I dont run blinds that a dog cannot do as a mark. If he can see the bird down and still have touble getting to it, dont try that as a blind just yet. No saying your dog cant do those as marks...just throwing that out there.

KwickLabs · Aug 21, 2009

In m my limited experience on this issue, what has worked for me is to teach the dog how to deal with the suction causing him to "bail". Reaching the limit of his experience causes him to look for an "out" plus it is usually difficult to move up on a long water blind. He needs to learn the correct "out".

I look for two points of water that form a "barrier" to a long channel. Throw a mark back at the end of the channel. A few days later, we return and place a blind in the position of the old mark. When the dog gets between the points and starts to "ping pong" (left and right backs result in left and right overs). At this time attrition becomes a relentless process until it wears the dog down and he takes a "back" to the "blind". Keep in mind this is no longer a true, cold blind....but we are in a teaching mode which helps the dog acquire a skill. Don't try this if you can't stop the dog in the water with a whistle......and work slowly. What's cool about this is the "back light" eventually happens if you give him time to recall the mark. Use attrition......NO COLLAR.

A few days later, we return to the same situation. Two big white bumpers are visibly placed on the two points, and the "blind" is run again. Not only do the points "beg with suction", but the bumpers enhance the probability of a "ping-pong". However, the dog has a mental image/memory (probably not real clear yet) of swimming past and out of these situations. He's got an "out" which you only need to remind him of......using attrition......NO COLLAR.

The contrast to bailing ("ping-ponging") and taking a straight back becomes a fairly taught expectation which usually translates to other cold situations. You have given the dog a clear, contrasting alternative to "ping-ponging".....an "out" with the confidence to drive back.

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

paul young said:
at 20 months of age, you SHOULD be following along behind the dog on long blinds. they should also be land blinds.

keep the water blinds within his comfort range for now, but teach the concepts. (shoreline, over the point, past the point, etc.) when he's showing confidence on the long (300 yard plus) land blinds without you following him, start extending his water blinds.

this process takes as long as it takes, but may take less time than you might think, if you go about it correctly.

as was said, ask the pro you're working with and listen to him. good luck!-Paul

I'm training with the pro tomorrow. Going in with questions loaded. I don't think it will take too long to get through this, but your right. Time will tell.

Matt's Grizz · Aug 21, 2009

Evan said:
So what? Don't place artificial limits on distance due to some hunt test. Run BB Blinds starting very close and with white bumpers. As he starts bearing down on his lines, and running with style and momentum, session-by-session, gradually extend distance without regard to limiting the distance, and switch to orange bumpers fairly early. In the end you should have him charging out on committed lines at around 300 yards or so.

The run some Gradient blinds, Tune Up drills, etc. What have you done in the way of transitional drills to get tihs dog going on cold blinds?

Evan

I started running pattern blinds with white bumpers, then orange bumpers. Then I did some memory blinds. Memory blinds for me were letting the dog watch the bird boy place the blind, then putting the dog away for a few minutes and then sending him on the blind. Then I started him on blinds at 50 yards with white bumpers, and lengthened him out to 150 plus yards. Then I did the same thing with orange bumpers.

"Ping Ponging" bliind??

Matt's Grizz

JusticeDog

copterdoc

Matt's Grizz

Matt's Grizz

copterdoc

Bob Gutermuth

TroyFeeken

Scott Parker

JusticeDog

Matt's Grizz

Matt's Grizz

Matt's Grizz

JKL

paul young

Evan

short retired

KwickLabs

Matt's Grizz

Matt's Grizz

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