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I think a better question may be: Who went the wrong direction more? We can not sit here and say that field line breeders have not lost some of the conformation. In my opinion, they have......just not nearly as much as the show lines have. We can all see that today's show lines are no where near those pictured in your excellent post.

Did you post somewhere else that they since have also changed the breed standard, since that of 1930. I am not sure of the changes, but I thought they had, and based on that, it is my understanding that even those pictured from 1930 would not even meet today's standard....(then again, I may be completely wrong and very delirious).
 
If there was any advantage to paying attention to form, ie. to chase a dual championship, I think they would pay more attention to form.

But the only dual dogs nowadays work the other direction, they take dogs with show-form and prove they can do MH work. History says it should be the other way, we should take field-form, which is true to the function, and they should be competitive in conformation.

But that would require a whole new paradigm of thinking in the breed's fancy.
I thought dual champions only applied to FC / CH! Way back when, there were many CH / MH and today there are many CH / MH. Does not make them dual dogs. It just shows that they can be trained to meet the standard of the hunt test, no matter how slow they may be to retrieve those birds.....
 
very good point. however, you do have to admit that little or no consideration is given to form by the field breeders. should the field line have no standard for conformation, and instead have an alternate "performance based" conformation?
That's the way it already is and it has been that way for a long time. And I have no problem with that. The differences in the Field and Show are so far removed from each other they are de facto different breeds.

[After all, if the dog doesn't do what it was originally bred to do, in my mind, isn't a "dog," it is something else.] And that something else in this case is called a Bench Dog. IMO- The the AKC show ring is doing an injustice to the Labrador breed.
 
I may be wrong (and have been many times), but AKC does NOT establish the breed standard...it is the Labrador club. Amnd who makes up the Labrador Club? When you have judges and people active in the breed club AND they produce dogs that do not look like the standard from 20 or even 30 years ago, what tyde lab is put up in the show? Bingo! Dogs that look like what the judges produce.

I agree with Kevin totally. Search for the great conformation stud dog named Dickendall Arnold and then you convince me which side made the biggest move from beautiful labs from the 70's. And Kevin can help me with the name of the great yellow stud dog that was the stud from the 70's - compare him to other conformation dogs and field dogs... remember now, Shamrock Acres Light Brigade!
 
. Search for the great conformation stud dog named Dickendall Arnold and then you convince me which side made the biggest move from beautiful labs from the 70's. And Kevin can help me with the name of the great yellow stud dog that wasw the stud from the 70's - compare him to opther conformation dogs and field dogs...
If that is the case, then wouldn't the question be, which side made the biggest move between the 30's (which is what the OP stated, based on Dual Champions), and the 70's, which you just mentioned?

I think you can see that the move was made within that period, and it still fits in with the OP argument.....Just my opinion
 
I kind of like these dogs...
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I'm sure everyone gets tired of my posting this picture but as long as there is debate over the breed std I will continue to remind everyone that our field dogs today look much more like the DCs of 50-60 yrs ago than the bench dogs of today.

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Discussion starter · #30 · (Edited)
Did you post somewhere else that they since have also changed the breed standard, since that of 1930.
It was revised as recently as 1994. Most changes have been for explanation purposes, few have been substantive. The substantive change in 1994 was related to size.

I am not sure of the changes, but I thought they had, and based on that, it is my understanding that even those pictured from 1930 would not even meet today's standard....(then again, I may be completely wrong and very delirious).
The problem with that argument is that the standard is open to interpretation. When the authors wrote "athletic," to conformation breeders today that says something completely different when they read it. If the authors envisioned the dogs pictured when they first wrote it, I believe they would be horrified by what wins in the conformation ring today.
 
It was revised as recently as 1994. Most changes have been for explanation purposes, few have been substantive. The substantive change in 1994 was related to size.

The problem with that argument is that the standard is open to interpretation. When the authors wrote "athletic," to conformation breeders today that says something completely different when they read it. If the authors envisioned the dogs pictured when they first wrote it, I believe they would be horrified by what wins in the conformation ring today.
Thank you for the clarification. Based on comments from the show side, I thought the changes were greater than that.

Also, thank you for posting this information. This way, I will now have some reference (and pictures) whenever I decide to antagonize the show breed nuts (not all of you, just some on another particular forum) that argue that the Westminster winner this year was all muscle.
 
I'm sure everyone gets tired of my posting this picture but as long as there is debate over the breed std I will continue to remind everyone that our field dogs today look much more like the DCs of 50-60 yrs ago than the bench dogs of today.
I agree. I love their looks, and they all have snouts, unlike some of the ring winners today.
 
I do not believe that substantial change was made in the 30's...no where have I seen the
Rottie head on any labs from earlier times nor do want to see it now...
.

I own a male out of Blackwater Rudy on one side and Watermarks the Boss on the other. He so reminds me of Light Brigade (I think that it is the old lines showing through) and inevidiably someone comes up to ask about his pedigree. He also reminds me of the labs that we bought in the 60's...I still favor that old look.

(PS...please ignor my misspellings and typos...I am under the influence from TKR surgery last week)
 
I think the show labs are bred the way they are because that's what the general public wants most of them just want a house dog so for the breeders it's all about selling puppies.
Scott,

That is NOT the impression I get from the folks contacting me. Some are 2000 miles away who contact me because they can't seem to find the look they want in a PET. Because of some of these boards, I can often refer them to breeders closer, thankfully! Anne
 


Tank and Lottie. that is a WHOLE LOT of dog in that picture
 
I hope the OP doesn't mind, I have a collection of English Dual Ch photos that I can add to this conversation, as well as a couple of American firsts. Give me a moment, there will have to be several posts due to the number of photos.

DC Banchory Bolo
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DC Banchory Sunspeck
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DC Titus of Whitmore
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DC Bramshaw Bob
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DC Banchory Painter
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DC Lochar Nessie
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Anyway, there they are. A great line up of who's who from the early history of the Labrador retriever. I can't help but notice that none of these dogs look much like what is winning in the Show ring today. I do see a closer similarity to the Field labs in type and structure, though not as exaggerated like some of today's field labs. Nice moderate dogs IMHO, I just wish there were more emphasis on producing this kind of Lab instead of the divergent movement we see that only seems to be widening the gap between field and show.
Great topic!
 
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