Hey Folks. I have a yellow female, 18 mos, that has transitioned to cold blinds. Hard charging, focused and works hard to please. Fairly sensitive. Runs hard on marks and blinds. Problem I'm having is she pops fairly often on her blinds (usually within the first 30 yards). Not every time, but about 60% of the time. Once I cast from after the pop, she seems to do O.K. to the bird. I started cold blinds 100-150 yards. I've applied indirect pressure when she pops, but she seems to get nervous when I do. When I don't apply indirect pressure, she seems to complete the blind with more confidence. I'm taking my time with this and don't want to make any mistakes I need to go back and work through (i.e. too much pressure). She has demonstrated a lot of drive from a pup, so no confidence issues to this point. Don't want to take that out of her or confuse her. Was hoping for some help on this, if possible. Thanks in advance.
Popping on Blinds
Ron Wilson
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Hey Folks. I have a yellow female, 18 mos, that has transitioned to cold blinds. Hard charging, focused and works hard to please. Fairly sensitive. Runs hard on marks and blinds. Problem I'm having is she pops fairly often on her blinds (usually within the first 30 yards). Not every time, but about 60% of the time. Once I cast from after the pop, she seems to do O.K. to the bird. I started cold blinds 100-150 yards. I've applied indirect pressure when she pops, but she seems to get nervous when I do. When I don't apply indirect pressure, she seems to complete the blind with more confidence. I'm taking my time with this and don't want to make any mistakes I need to go back and work through (i.e. too much pressure). She has demonstrated a lot of drive from a pup, so no confidence issues to this point. Don't want to take that out of her or confuse her. Was hoping for some help on this, if possible. Thanks in advance.
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Good point, John. Sorry. OB, force, 3-handed casting, collar conditioning, FTP, Double T, pattern blinds. No swim by due to weather. Will do this spring.
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John,
Bird Boy blinds and diversion blinds, but not 5 or 9 legged blinds.
Bird Boy blinds and diversion blinds, but not 5 or 9 legged blinds.
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710 Posts
Based on this if it were me I would back up and do 5 legged pattern blinds till she is only handling a few times on the entire set up and then move onto the 9 legged pattern. Once she is doing well on these add obsticles to the field I use logs and hay bales. Start them close to the line on 3 out of 9 (close easiest) then move them out until they are 3/4 of the way to the end of your blinds run these until she is sucessful 85-90% of the time and you feel she has got the momentum and confidence to move on to cold blinds. The popping based on what I know about your dog seems to be a confidence issue if you back up and do these I think you may see a big difference in her when you get back in to trasitioning to cold blinds. I hope this helps!
Jon.
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I had the same issue with my 2 year old female. Once she got past the 30 yard mark she was fine.
I would shorten up the blind, send her, and if she starts to pop just say back.
No pressure. Try to not let her get back to sitting and looking at you. Say back back back and she should have the memory of force to pile to keep her moving.
Just get her going again. By shortening up the blind once she gets past that 30 yard mark she will be rewarded with the prize.
This worked out great for me and now she runs 300-450 yard blinds in just 6 months.
Loren
I would shorten up the blind, send her, and if she starts to pop just say back.
No pressure. Try to not let her get back to sitting and looking at you. Say back back back and she should have the memory of force to pile to keep her moving.
Just get her going again. By shortening up the blind once she gets past that 30 yard mark she will be rewarded with the prize.
This worked out great for me and now she runs 300-450 yard blinds in just 6 months.
Loren
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From your description (and I hope it is accurate) she is making an effort and not a mistake-she doesn't know what to do. Thus beware corrections. However popping is quitting and it is an important habit to not reinforce. If she is doing it 60% it IS ALREADY REINFORCED AS A HABIT. You need to stop the habit asap.
Indirect pressure: I assume you mean sit whistle. nick back! Wrong in my book. The sit whistle reinforces the pop! Do not blow a sit whistle on a pop. You need to immediately say "back" with hand up and use the hand that unwinds her-NO sit whistle.
Pressure is not automatic-see how she respond and if not good, next time add pressure AFTER she has turned. This assumes she has been taught and understands force back.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, you need to mix in succes. I suggest that you do this with a mixture of 3 things; First walkaround blinds-walk out with her and 3 bumpers and let her see you put them out in 3 different places. Return to line and send. She knows they are out there somewhere. She should go with gusto. Handle as necessary.
Second: Teach some blinds. Return after a few days and rerun them. Perhaps some days they will be marked quite visibly although I seldom go to the white pail/jug method-that is not a blind.
Third: Mix in some cold blinds but in a factorless field. Always do 3 to get the idea of go for more. This builds confidence eventually.
All of these are normal problems. Be consistent and persistent and in time you will have her going 250 yards with style.
Cheers
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I know some people will disagree with this and I know not two dogs are the same. I used the white bucket I carried my bumpers in and sat it right next to the bumpers to "cheat" to put the dog on a good line.
When she started realizing that even though she didn't mark anything that there is something out there and she focused on the bucket. It built her trust in me and her confidence in herself. I gradually increased the distances for a confidence builder and then she was making blind retrieves at about 150 yards without the bucket and the distances grew from there. Now she is making 300+ yard blinds with ease and most of all CONFIDENCE.
She popped on me too at first. However, I found that it was a dependency thing. As soon as you see her about to pop reinforce the back without the stop whistle and without the nick. If she is looking to you for instructions the nick or stop whistle may confuse her and she will not build the confidence. Back is the name of the game at this point of the training.
Good luck, your pup will get it. Be patient and lots of praise.
When she started realizing that even though she didn't mark anything that there is something out there and she focused on the bucket. It built her trust in me and her confidence in herself. I gradually increased the distances for a confidence builder and then she was making blind retrieves at about 150 yards without the bucket and the distances grew from there. Now she is making 300+ yard blinds with ease and most of all CONFIDENCE.
She popped on me too at first. However, I found that it was a dependency thing. As soon as you see her about to pop reinforce the back without the stop whistle and without the nick. If she is looking to you for instructions the nick or stop whistle may confuse her and she will not build the confidence. Back is the name of the game at this point of the training.
Good luck, your pup will get it. Be patient and lots of praise.
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Thanks everyone. This is good info.
To follow up. I have tried a variety of things when she pops (yes, I can tell when she is about to pop).
- My description is pretty accurate of where we are in her training.
- I first tried indirect pressure. Whistle, nick, back. I felt I was either correcting for an honest mistake and/or was reinforcing the problem. Stopped doing that. Thanks for the confirmation Dennis, figured that was wrong. I have also simply got her settled (done nothing to correct), then casted. I have also given the verbal "back" and each time I do that she presses on.
- I'm going to re-evaluate today/tomorrow and make adjustments for this weekend.
Thanks again everyone.
Dennis, I really enjoy (and so does my dog) the marking drills you demo'd at Mike's seminar a couple years ago. I use these with my female when training alone just about every weekend when I'm not using my BB's.
To follow up. I have tried a variety of things when she pops (yes, I can tell when she is about to pop).
- My description is pretty accurate of where we are in her training.
- I first tried indirect pressure. Whistle, nick, back. I felt I was either correcting for an honest mistake and/or was reinforcing the problem. Stopped doing that. Thanks for the confirmation Dennis, figured that was wrong. I have also simply got her settled (done nothing to correct), then casted. I have also given the verbal "back" and each time I do that she presses on.
- I'm going to re-evaluate today/tomorrow and make adjustments for this weekend.
Thanks again everyone.
Dennis, I really enjoy (and so does my dog) the marking drills you demo'd at Mike's seminar a couple years ago. I use these with my female when training alone just about every weekend when I'm not using my BB's.
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Sounds like she has heard alot of whistles up close. Try building her confidence by sending her on a known blinds with minimum whistles espcially in the 30 yard zone. If you can tell she is about to pop dont let her. Use hand cast with a verbal when you see her about to break down and pop that will help her drive through her worry zone. Low intensity nick with the verbal might help her drive through. But it all comes down to confidence in running blinds. Needs more..more..more.
Along with other advice on this thread .I like to get the young dogs used to running to the end of the field .I will walk to the centre of the field or closer so that I run the dog to the end of the field .As the dog's confidence grows I will move back to lengthen the blind.As the dog gets older and we add more factors to the blinds trhe dog already thinks that it will be going to the end of the field..
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I think Dennis is right on the topic. That's an excellent lesson plan and I've added to my training notes. Thanks for posting it Dennis and thanks Ron for asking the question.
I had this problem several years ago. I fixed by doing pattern blinds and extended the red & white drill. I also live by a few quotes. I don't know who said them I just know they work:
* Teach the blind in the first 30 yds.
* A good trainer gets his dog (buddy) to run blinds at the same speed and style as the dog runs marks.
* Extend the R&W drill 90 paces for the white bumpers and 180 paces for the red bumpers. Rex Carr - 9 bumpers to the half circle.
* for a while run pattern blinds twice. The second run builds confidence.
* Once the dog is running well then start to add in cold blinds just like Dennis described.
Good luck on your training and I hope this helps.
I had this problem several years ago. I fixed by doing pattern blinds and extended the red & white drill. I also live by a few quotes. I don't know who said them I just know they work:
* Teach the blind in the first 30 yds.
* A good trainer gets his dog (buddy) to run blinds at the same speed and style as the dog runs marks.
* Extend the R&W drill 90 paces for the white bumpers and 180 paces for the red bumpers. Rex Carr - 9 bumpers to the half circle.
* for a while run pattern blinds twice. The second run builds confidence.
* Once the dog is running well then start to add in cold blinds just like Dennis described.
Good luck on your training and I hope this helps.
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Sorry. I should have explained.
First, teach the blind in the 1st 30 yds. (Young dog training) If you are doing pattern blinds start initially or if you have a popping problem. Start the blind by walking to within 30 yds of the blind. Send the dog. Have a series of 3 blinds. Go back to line then run the blind. You are eliminating confusion as a problem. Once they get the message move on.
2nd, generally marks are fun and blinds are work. I think that your job as the trainer is to get the dog to run blinds in the same manner and speed as he/she runs marks. That shows you have not damaged the dog in any way. Don't damage style and you can only correct dis-ob.
3rd - Red & white drill. It's a Rex Carr drill (9 piles of bumpers to the half-circle. White bumpers in 5 separate piles (3 bs each) then past & between the white Bs place 4 piles of orange/red bumpers.Great drill for teaching the line without pressure.
First, teach the blind in the 1st 30 yds. (Young dog training) If you are doing pattern blinds start initially or if you have a popping problem. Start the blind by walking to within 30 yds of the blind. Send the dog. Have a series of 3 blinds. Go back to line then run the blind. You are eliminating confusion as a problem. Once they get the message move on.
2nd, generally marks are fun and blinds are work. I think that your job as the trainer is to get the dog to run blinds in the same manner and speed as he/she runs marks. That shows you have not damaged the dog in any way. Don't damage style and you can only correct dis-ob.
3rd - Red & white drill. It's a Rex Carr drill (9 piles of bumpers to the half-circle. White bumpers in 5 separate piles (3 bs each) then past & between the white Bs place 4 piles of orange/red bumpers.Great drill for teaching the line without pressure.
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