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i am total amatuer too. i do all the training at my three dog kennel except ff and initial cc. i picked up new pup last august out of fc afc sire X grhrch mh bitch. the pro who does my ff and cc work and all of my "dog friends" said "keep it happy, build desire, don't worry with steady or control standards yet you'll have plenty of time for that later. let him be a puppy!"

i dropped him off at the pro at the beginning of last dec for ff and cc (and boarding too, luckily these training needs coincided with duck season);-). my pro asked, "where is he in training?" we went through what he was doing and he commented, "he sure is steady at this stage/age (6 months)." i explained that at three months i determined there would not be enough log chain in the mountain or electricty at the dam to put this dog steady if i didnt do it now. the pro called the next day and confirmed exceptional desire despite the early standard.

i have made all the mistakes possible with previous dogs. "developing desire" and waiting to establish control standards later is one mistake i hope not to make again. i think the great ones challenge greatly. moose gooser thanks for starting a valuable learning thread and you got a great one too.
 
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i have made all the mistakes possible with previous dogs. "developing desire" and waiting to establish control standards later is one mistake i hope not to make again. i think the great ones challenge greatly. moose gooser thanks for starting a valuable learning thread and you got a great one too.
I think it is important for "newbies" to understand that is not allways the case. You have to read the dog. I have seen too many that have steady dogs at young ages who have no more fire even though they say they had it as pups. Be careful here.
 
greg,
i am a "newbie" to the HT/FT world and to what is required for my dogs to be successful in that world. i have "trained" over a dozen "bird fetchers" and some have delivered as many as 5K birds to hand but did it in a way that wouldn't pass a seasoned test.

i didn't make my point clearly. i was trying to say that "yes" each dog is an individual and occaisionally the most often correct answer or "convetional wisdom" may not be the correct course for your new pup. only you (or the trainer) will know what is right for your individual dog. when i say i never want to make that mistake again it means that if i have another firebreather (like the one i have now) i want to recognize it early and treat him or her the right way at the right time.
john mc
 
Carol, you read a little to far into my post. You don't need to send a dog to a pro to get fixed, just another trainer to reset some standards. AND what happened last winter?? Thought you were coming to see us for a few weeks??
 
Being a total newbie to the sport and training my first dog I have not been around alot of other trainers or handlers. How do I know what the proper "Standard" should be ? I think I know what it should be but a few others have said they thought they had a High Standard until they let another trainer work with the dog they were having an issue with.
Since this thread was about standards I thought it would be ok to ask the question above here instead of starting a new thread. Can some one explain it for me.
 
Kelly.....What I usually say to my clients after a training session is:
1) What did you learn today?
2) If you could go back and re-do 3 things today what would you change?
Usual answer is raise my standards!! Problem with that answer is that standards are different for all dogs at different levels depending on age and where their at in the training program. Standards will/should vary with a derby dog compared to an open dog....again with keeping in mind of success ratio for the past couple training sessions.Attitude is everything always!! Unless you see it happening day in and day out you may be a little confused, important to remember attitude and only thing that is a never...is never let your dog break for the retrieve. Other than that dog training is being able to read your dog and know when to push them and know when to back off of them.....Randy Bohn
 
Kelly
If I may make a suggestion?
Randy Bohn, who posted on this thread, will be more than happy to chat with you if you give him a call. I realize you don't know what "Standards" are all about but Mr Bohn sure does. Give him a call and maybe set aside a few days to come up to PA.
 
Me too, and the people I train with have said no problem, but I still feel like I'm waisting their time. Matt
The only time being wasted is the time letting your dog get retrieves you don't think he should get. Groups train together to help each other out, to produce better trained dogs. When they say no problem they mean it.
 
I stopped using either stick or high collar correction with my current Lunatic. She would just get noisier, bouncier and higher and it never worked with my older bitch either. Steady, yes, but noise and heeling, no. Instead, I'm using ME, my voice, body language, hands. Keep it calm & firm. Not angry, not yelling (HUGE challenge there). Like Sunday, I set up 5 stations with stickmen. My husband would normally walk to each one to shoot/throw, do the whole circuit for each dog. As he is still healing from a broken collar bone and ribs, walking is a little tough. So. He stayed at each station for three dogs. Each dog stayed in crate not far from line, door open, stay until called to heel, sit/stay quietly in HB, heel to line, sit quietly. X5 for each dog. Corrected with body/voice only and if they didn't behave, they started over. Nothing bugs my high one more than not getting to retrieve, so she is figuring out what she has to do to get that mark, she is being forced to think rather than leap out of the box, race me to the holding blind, whine and carouse there, beat me to the line, etc. But there can be NO slide from me, I can't be in a rush, like I usually act, even if I keep the training group waiting, which I despise doing. I have to watch her, her body language. Don't watch the marks, watch the dog, correct instantly, pull off line, redo the mark as many times as necessary until the dog gets that it has to sit still and quiet. Every time this dog wants something, from being let out, to eating, anything, she has to sit quietly. Fun bumpers are no more. She has to sit in the yard and have bumpers/birds thrown in the grass in front of her, no infractions before release. Lots of OB and yard drills, no-no drills, chair drills, remote sit/sends, all OB to get her focused on me, working with me. Mixing things up at the line. Have her run a blind first, then marks. Throw marks, pull off, run blind (per Angie's cupcake post). Always try to keep her thinking instead of just revving that engine. She is improving, though her marking goes down, that will come back once she is settled and focused. I used to be afraid of causing problems with drive but I know now it would take a case of dynamite or three to take that from her. But she still goes overdrive in group with other people/dogs and it is going to take time and work to fix that, since I only train with a group 1-2x week and that atmosphere is key. With heeling issues, I use lower level continuous, so she isn't totally freaking and vocalizing but gets the message she has to get back to my side asap, I walk backwards as well to make sure she has to hustle to get to me, not me keep walking to her. Vocal, I get down in her face, grab her head, make her look at me, "quiet". As many times as it takes, as long as it takes. Right now, it isn't about marking but how she behaves for the marks, I have to forget about ribbons for the moment if I want a reasonably behaved dog later. She is 17 months. There's no magic bullet and not everything works for every dog, but for this one, the stick wasn't doing it, nor high collar correction. The higher she gets, the calmer and more in control I have to be, which is so not me. No more begging, asking, pleading, cajoling, nagging, offering treats, yelling, threats, burning, whipping, none of those worked before, so I'm trying other things, including changing how I am interacting and responding, which is far easier said than done. Doing more OB and drills, both of which bore me, but forcing us both to break out of doing the same old thing reinforcing the same undesirable behavior. It is a PITA going out and reloading the wingers when training alone, but denial of the retrieve for anything less than rock solid/quiet is key. Glad I only have one like this at the moment, though the others are benefiting from more discipline as well and I hope to head future pups off at the pass when it comes to manners and noise. Working with a trainer who thinks outside the box helps tremendously too. Just watching him is an education.
Thanks for taking the time to write that out Rainmaker!
Matt
 
The only time being wasted is the time letting your dog get retrieves you don't think he should get. Groups train together to help each other out, to produce better trained dogs. When they say no problem they mean it.
I know, I have to get over the feeling, and tell myself that I'm also helping them out, especially if I see a younger dog with signs of the same problems I let go when mine was that age, and tell them how I would do it different.
This has been one helpfull post, thanks again to MooseGooser for starting it! And all the people who have responded with sugestions.
Matt
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
To answer Randys questions that he askes his clients after a day as it pertains to me would be

1.what did you learn today?:

I learned NOT to come to the line ill prepared, not having a plan in my mind as to what I am trying to accomplish.
I also learned that a video REALLY opens your eyes as to what is really going on!
When i ran that dog ,, some of the things I see in the video, doesnt register when I run her.
Why did I have the transmitter in my pocket?? What good is that?
Why did i let her get the birds?? ~~~ i know better!!
My nerves are a problem!!! They always have been. Its really hard for me to relax and concentrate on the task at hand!!
When Running that dog, I compare it to what I would imagine being in a flash flood would be like! You just flail around and do what you can to get to shore,, then stand up and dry off!!:p.

2. What would I do different?:
Go to the line prepared! have the collar out and ready! Prolly hand the gun off to somebody else.
I would also have a short tab choker on her and use it to enforce the sit standards, and prolly NOT run marks as mulitples , but rather singles, enforcing the "sit" and mechanics of the dog and ME!
I woild also ask for help from the guys I train with to stop the action when THEY see something that isnt right!!


Several have PM me about the hot blind being close to that center bird!!

The wind that day was in a direction that IF the dog took a good line to that center mark, it would be up wind of the blind and shallow.
I did give a whistle on the mark,, but I really didnt have to. She winded the mark, just as I blew the whistle. You can hear the others joking with me that they prolly would have done the same thing too,, but the dog had the mark.

The video really showed me that I was absolutly unprepared to run the set up, and maybe a bit of ego was involved to run it the same as other more experianced dog did before me!!

I wonder how many others make similar mistkes on training day with groups,, and how many of your training buddys let it happen!
I think groups should be of a mindset to check egos at the dooor, and each handler be open for sugestions,, Even if it means throwing on the brakes in the middle of a set up!!

I know I REALLY need to work on this!! My nerves get the better of me!!
I run things,, just to run things!!:confused:~~~~ not good!!


Gooser
 
Warren says this:

Hey Gooser:

Its also hard for me to do this b/c i get to train with a group only about once a week. I like for my girl to get out there to pick up some birds. i also dont like to inconvenience the bird throwers by having reruns.

Warren
Gooser agrees he feels the same way.

I have guilty of this, too.

We should all write at least 500 times, "I will focus on standards and obedience. I will not focus on marks."

We have dogs for whom the common training scenario of focusing on marks does not work. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Change your focus, your methods, and recognize your dog needs something different then other dogs whose drive is not so high. Our dogs do not have problems with marks, their issues are control, obedience, etc.

Focus on what training the dog needs today.
 
Mike,

What did you learn today? Good response.

One of the big take aways here is the training group mentality.
Find a group that truly trains. Not just runs test setups as multiples.

I rarely run test setups any more as multiples. If so, it is to test a concept
that I have been working on over the previous week/days. Even then, if problems occur, don't just finish the setup. Begin training when the problem occurs. Forget the remain marks/blinds.

A great example of this is the group I train with now. They have had success with talented dogs. Always running test setups. They got hooked up with the pro I use down here (all of us except 1 being judges) and I have slowly seen them change their outlook on how to train.
Good Luck
G
 
Problem with that answer is that standards are different for all dogs at different levels depending on age and where their at in the training program. Standards will/should vary with a derby dog compared to an open dog....again with keeping in mind of success ratio for the past couple training sessions.Attitude is everything always!!Randy Bohn
I have a dog that's about ready to run qualifying. He moves his feet when birds are going down. I'm not sure it is possible to stop this without ruining the dog. I have been told by a couple FT pros that he's really high powered and it will probably be something that he always does no matter what I do to him. The thing I don't tolerate is forward movement. I'll let him move his feet, but if he starts forward, the hammer comes down and the birds get picked up.


Moosegooser, I noticed that your dog won't let you move up on it when you are trying to line it up for a mark or blind. You get it to sit, and when you step up, it won't let you, it moves forward on its own. That might be a good place to start working. You can't work with a dog on line if it won't let you step up. Also, I know you guys use your bucket and gun in tests, but it might be a good idea to forget that for now. I don't know how you can handle a gun and train at the same time. I'd think after the dog is under better control you could easily slip them back into the equation.
 
Buzz
Does he crouch down while doing happy feet like in your avatar?
 
Buzz
Does he crouch down while doing happy feet like in your avatar?
Yup. He bobs his head up and down too. I ran him 9 or 10 times in derby and he got out in front of me once, and one other time we had a controlled break. He's never broke in training. I shouldn't have run that much derby, but we had 8 points and I was trying to get that last 2 points. All we got was a higher dog and a pile of green...:rolleyes:
 
OK Buzz
There's something fairly simple you can do to work on that.
Stay tuned.....
 
Quick (?) newbie question from the "peanut gallery" here...

I'm always reading and learning a ton as always (well almost always, lol).
Most of the time here and when at field days and in training groups, I hear people saying over and over, "lots of fun bumpers... lots of fun bumpers."
Does this refer to only dogs that we need to maintain and possibly increase (rather than check) the retrieving drive/excitement in?

Why is it that so many agree in this case with no fun bumpers and maintaining strict standards from the get-go (ie- puppyhood on) yet others tell you to throw lots of fun bumpers to maintain excitement, etc.? Is it because she already has so much drive/enthusiasm for the retrieve?

I'm sure it is case-by-case, but I just want to make sure, and find out which is ideal in what circumstances (as a general rule).

TIA! :)
 
Why is it that so many agree in this case with no fun bumpers and maintaining strict standards from the get-go (ie- puppyhood on) yet others tell you to throw lots of fun bumpers to maintain excitement, etc.? Is it because she already has so much drive/enthusiasm for the retrieve?
'Cause it's dog training and everybody who has even seen a dog has an opinion. The only thing two dog trainers can agree on, is that dog trainer #3 is doing things wrong.

Monteview, what do you see lacking in hunt test dogs, horsepower or line manners/control?

I give my dogs very few happy bumpers regards,
 
Montview
Fun bumpers for a dog as seen in the video is like adding gasoline to a fire. It makes a bad situation worse.

Fun bumpers are a tool that improves attitude and relieves stress in some dogs. With one of my dogs I throw them often as rewards and stress relievers. I rarely throw my high flyer/poor line manners dog any fun bumpers. You have to read the dog and respond accordingly.

FWIW
Mark Land
 
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