I stopped using either stick or high collar correction with my current Lunatic. She would just get noisier, bouncier and higher and it never worked with my older bitch either. Steady, yes, but noise and heeling, no. Instead, I'm using ME, my voice, body language, hands. Keep it calm & firm. Not angry, not yelling (HUGE challenge there). Like Sunday, I set up 5 stations with stickmen. My husband would normally walk to each one to shoot/throw, do the whole circuit for each dog. As he is still healing from a broken collar bone and ribs, walking is a little tough. So. He stayed at each station for three dogs. Each dog stayed in crate not far from line, door open, stay until called to heel, sit/stay quietly in HB, heel to line, sit quietly. X5 for each dog. Corrected with body/voice only and if they didn't behave, they started over. Nothing bugs my high one more than not getting to retrieve, so she is figuring out what she has to do to get that mark, she is being forced to think rather than leap out of the box, race me to the holding blind, whine and carouse there, beat me to the line, etc. But there can be NO slide from me, I can't be in a rush, like I usually act, even if I keep the training group waiting, which I despise doing. I have to watch her, her body language. Don't watch the marks, watch the dog, correct instantly, pull off line, redo the mark as many times as necessary until the dog gets that it has to sit still and quiet. Every time this dog wants something, from being let out, to eating, anything, she has to sit quietly. Fun bumpers are no more. She has to sit in the yard and have bumpers/birds thrown in the grass in front of her, no infractions before release. Lots of OB and yard drills, no-no drills, chair drills, remote sit/sends, all OB to get her focused on me, working with me. Mixing things up at the line. Have her run a blind first, then marks. Throw marks, pull off, run blind (per Angie's cupcake post). Always try to keep her thinking instead of just revving that engine. She is improving, though her marking goes down, that will come back once she is settled and focused. I used to be afraid of causing problems with drive but I know now it would take a case of dynamite or three to take that from her. But she still goes overdrive in group with other people/dogs and it is going to take time and work to fix that, since I only train with a group 1-2x week and that atmosphere is key. With heeling issues, I use lower level continuous, so she isn't totally freaking and vocalizing but gets the message she has to get back to my side asap, I walk backwards as well to make sure she has to hustle to get to me, not me keep walking to her. Vocal, I get down in her face, grab her head, make her look at me, "quiet". As many times as it takes, as long as it takes. Right now, it isn't about marking but how she behaves for the marks, I have to forget about ribbons for the moment if I want a reasonably behaved dog later. She is 17 months. There's no magic bullet and not everything works for every dog, but for this one, the stick wasn't doing it, nor high collar correction. The higher she gets, the calmer and more in control I have to be, which is so not me. No more begging, asking, pleading, cajoling, nagging, offering treats, yelling, threats, burning, whipping, none of those worked before, so I'm trying other things, including changing how I am interacting and responding, which is far easier said than done. Doing more OB and drills, both of which bore me, but forcing us both to break out of doing the same old thing reinforcing the same undesirable behavior. It is a PITA going out and reloading the wingers when training alone, but denial of the retrieve for anything less than rock solid/quiet is key. Glad I only have one like this at the moment, though the others are benefiting from more discipline as well and I hope to head future pups off at the pass when it comes to manners and noise. Working with a trainer who thinks outside the box helps tremendously too. Just watching him is an education.