judge this scenario

copterdoc · Aug 4, 2010

Golddogs said:
It is a mark. Any bird thrown while the dog is on the line is treated as a mark.

You may be correct, but I feel that as soon as you make a mark a poison bird for a blind, it ceases to be a marking test for the dog, and instead becomes a trainability test for the blind.

I don't think it is "fair" to judge the dog on the mark, if it was already "no"ed off of it and handled away from it to a blind.

How is that any different, than the Judges telling the Handler, the dog must pick up the marks in a specified order?

steve schreiner · Aug 4, 2010

All the blind is doing is eroding the memory of the mark... Years ago the poison bird was never picked up in field trials and the trainers put so much pressure on the dogs there was no way they could get a dog to go back to the bird...It makes better trainers of us if the dog has to remember the mark and go back and pick it up...we end up with a balanced dog not one fearful of some things...
Some on here may remember a poison bird blind in Nashville where there were 3 blinds run before the dog picked up the bird... AND some dogs still remembered the bird ...very good memory .....that is what we are looking for in retrievers...
Steve S

Dan Boerboon · Aug 4, 2010

Juli H said:
This has been a great thread. Really good to read all the comments. I know now what I will do and what I will continue to work on with my dog.

Out of curiousity. Given that this was running water, does anyone thing it possible that the dog 'thought' he heard a whistle? This was one thought that came to my head after he popped... Esp considering he'd just run a blind? Thoughts?
My gut tells me (knowing my dog) he popped because he 'thought' he had left before being told to...but given the distance away he was, perhaps he actually thought he heard a whistle? (can't imagine this being likely, due to him being so close, unless he thought it was a 'soft' whistle). in the hunt test scenario? running water on the mark and blind, and running the blind first, it would have to give one some things to think about, if they were judging...(and as was mentioned, it isn't good to have to make the judges think, LOL)

Juli

Without being there to hear it you or someone else there are the only ones that can tell if the running water sounded like a whistle soft or otherwise.

LESTER LANGLEY · Aug 4, 2010

Training. sit burn sit, or preferrably sit stick sit. probably, not pick it up.

Test. "no here, Thank yall". I'm simply not going to let a dog break in a hunt test. I'll pick up a senior/seasoned dog for a CONTROLLED break. IMHO one hunt test pass ain't worth it.

Never been in the 3rd series of a Q or Open, so I can't honestly say how I would react, if I was still playing, that far into the trial. I've got a feeling the judges would probably help me with that decision.

Golddogs · Aug 4, 2010

copterdoc said:
You may be correct, but I feel that as soon as you make a mark a poison bird for a blind, it ceases to be a marking test for the dog, and instead becomes a trainability test for the blind.

I don't think it is "fair" to judge the dog on the mark, if it was already "no"ed off of it and handled away from it to a blind.

How is that any different, than the Judges telling the Handler, the dog must pick up the marks in a specified order?

Partially, but also a test of memory of a mark. Did the dog remeber the shot bird after being sent to pick up the cripple.

Scott Greenwood · Aug 5, 2010

Golddogs said:
Partially, but also a test of memory of a mark. Did the dog remeber the shot bird after being sent to pick up the cripple.

No not PARTIALLY, because it's not a mark any longer and is not judged as one in this scenario!

Golddogs · Aug 5, 2010

Scott Greenwood said:
No not PARTIALLY, because it's not a mark any longer and is not judged as one in this scenario!

You might want to check your facts. It is a mark and is judged as one. Please make your case for it not being a mark.

Bird is thrown while the dog is at the line. Is sent for a blind and then sent to retrieve the mark. Explain how this is not a mark!

copterdoc · Aug 5, 2010

From page 20 of the Rule Book, for AKC Retriever Hunt Tests......

On marked retrieves, the order in which
birds are to be retrieved shall not be specified by the
Judges:

A poison bird, is a diversion, not a mark. If is to be Judged as a mark, the dog is allowed to pick it up before it retrieves the blind.

If your argument is, that it's not a diversion, because it was thrown while the dog was still at the line, I would argue that doing so only made the test illegal. Either the dog is allowed to retrieve the mark first, or the diversion must be thrown after the dog is sent on the blind.

If you need to Judge a poison bird as a mark in a FT, in order to find a winner, that's fine. However, according to the standard that the dogs in a HT are competing against, a poison bird is not a mark and it isn't intended test marking or memory. That's what a really tough triple is for.

Howard N · Aug 5, 2010

Go to the line in a master hunter. Triple is thrown, dog picks up flyer, while returning from the first bird retrieved there are two dry shots, dog picks up a double blind then the remaining marks. All marks no poison birds.

copterdoc · Aug 5, 2010

Howard N said:
Go to the line in a master hunter. Triple is thrown, dog picks up flyer, while returning from the first bird retrieved there are two dry shots, dog picks up a double blind then the remaining marks. All marks no poison birds.

Exactly!

I don't see any problem with above set-up, being Judged as a marking test.

Golddogs · Aug 5, 2010

copterdoc said:
A poison bird, is a diversion, not a mark. If is to be Judged as a mark, the dog is allowed to pick it up before it retrieves the blind.

If your argument is, that it's not a diversion, because it was thrown while the dog was still at the line, I would argue that doing so only made the test illegal. Either the dog is allowed to retrieve the mark first, or the diversion must be thrown after the dog is sent on the blind.

.

I appreciate the civil discussion.
While you cannot dictate the order of marks to be picked up, you can dictate the order of blinds, and when they are to be picked up. The scenerio presented is one where the test begins with the blind being picked up.

A diversion is intended to " divert " a dog from a task it is already undertaking, i.e. returning with a bird or being sent to a blind, with control of the dog being the skill tested.

We may have to agree to disagree on this, but of course I am correct.

copterdoc · Aug 5, 2010

I have never said that dogs have not earned MH passes, in tests run as described.

I'm just saying that they shouldn't have ever been put in that position.

These are the rules:

Section 24. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve
either after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is
returning from the blind retrieve; however, diversion
birds shall only appear on marks when the dog is
returning from a retrieve.
Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of
the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but
constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved
by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or
thrown when the working dog is in a location that it
should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air
and as it falls.

Section 5. Master Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of five hunting situations as
follows: multiple land marks, multiple water marks,
multiple marks on water and land, a land blind and a
water blind (at least one that shall be a double blind in
any combination). There shall be at least three series.
At least one of the series shall include a walk-up.
Diversion birds and/or diversion shots such as
described in Chapter 3, Section 24, must be used at
least once. In Master tests, in at least one multiple
marking situation the dog’s marking will be tested with
at least 3 falls, before the dog is sent to retrieve.

Never set up tests that are designed to trick the dog.
Visible gun stations shall never be moved to another area
to mislead the dog.
Whenever a blind is placed prior to a mark going down and
it is to be run after the mark is retrieved, the blind shall never
be placed in the same area of the fall or near enough to the gun
station as to intentionally mislead the dog on its mark. This
does not apply, however, to a bird that is thrown while a dog is
running on a blind. Such a bird is not a trick, but a diversion
bird for the dog on the blind and as such it is judged as a control
situation, not as a mark.

Now when I read the above, I conclude that a "mark" that is thrown before the dog is sent on a blind, but must be retrieved after the blind, isn't a mark after all.

All that it is, is a diversion bird, thrown early and called a mark.

In common usage, it is termed a poison bird, because everybody knows it isn't the same thing as a mark. However, there is no mention of poison birds anywhere in the

Regulations &
Guidelines for
AKC® Hunting Tests
for Retrievers

I have no problem with the practice, as long as the poison bird isn't Judged as a mark. Because no matter what you choose to call it, it isn't a mark and it isn't covered in the rules.

If it is a legal test, please show me. I am often wrong and welcome the education.

Doug Main · Aug 5, 2010

copterdoc said:
I have never said that dogs have not earned MH passes, in tests run as described.

I'm just saying that they shouldn't have ever been put in that position.

These are the rules:

Now when I read the above, I conclude that a "mark" that is thrown before the dog is sent on a blind, but must be retrieved after the blind, isn't a mark after all.

All that it is, is a diversion bird, thrown early and called a mark.

In common usage, it is termed a poison bird, because everybody knows it isn't the same thing as a mark. However, there is no mention of poison birds anywhere in the

I have no problem with the practice, as long as the poison bird isn't Judged as a mark. Because no matter what you choose to call it, it isn't a mark and it isn't covered in the rules.

If it is a legal test, please show me. I am often wrong and welcome the education.

You are all wrong! ;-)

Diversion birds, by definition, are birds that are thrown either 1) while the dog is returning from another mark or blind, or 2) while the dog is on its way to a blind. The distinction between a mark and a diversion is if the dog is on the line when the bird is thrown it is a mark if the dog is in the field it is a diversion bird (training situation).

Sometimes a page of history is worth a volume of logic.

Diversion birds used to be marks in the old, old rules.

Judges cannot dictate the order a handler picks up marks. However, nothing in the rules prohibits the judge from designating a blind to be picked up between marks in Master tests.

copterdoc · Aug 5, 2010

It doesn't say:

....Diversion birds must appear on a blind retrieve
either after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is
returning from the blind retrieve;....

It says:

....Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve
either after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is
returning from the blind retrieve;...

The distinction isn't about when the diversion bird can be thrown and still be Judged as a diversion.

The distinction is that a diversion can be thrown on a blind retrieve, even though the dog doesn't already have a bag of feathers in it's mouth.

paul young · Aug 6, 2010

this is starting to get like the HT clothing thread.

you have heard from a multitude of 8 point master judges and grizzled old campaigners what constitutes a marking situation in AKC HT's. believe what you will and handle your dog according to what you think you know. just don't be surprised at the results.

the next time you're at a test, pose the question to the AKC Rep. maybe you'll believe him. -Paul

copterdoc · Aug 6, 2010

Well, I guess that answers the question.

Wyldfire · Aug 6, 2010

Section 24. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve
either after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is
returning from the blind retrieve; however, diversion
birds shall only appear on marks when the dog is
returning from a retrieve.
Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of
the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but
constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved
by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or
thrown when the working dog is in a location that it
should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air
and as it falls.

A diversion bird is a bird that is presented to the dog when not on the line. A bird shot for a dog while it's on the line is a mark and scored as such. A bird shot for a dog that is moving to or from a blind, or returning from a mark is a diversion bird and only scored on trainabilty.

Doug Main · Aug 6, 2010

copterdoc said:
It doesn't say:

It says:

The distinction isn't about when the diversion bird can be thrown and still be Judged as a diversion.

The distinction is that a diversion can be thrown on a blind retrieve, even though the dog doesn't already have a bag of feathers in it's mouth.

The rule uses "may" instead of "must" because you don't even need to have a diversion bird at all . . . . let alone with a blind retrieve!!!!!

Howard N · Aug 6, 2010

Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve
either after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is
returning from the blind retrieve;

The diversion may be either when coming or going when the dog is doing a blind.

however, diversion
birds shall only appear on marks when the dog is
returning from a retrieve.

diversion birds must be when a dog is returning when thrown on a mark.

Pretty simple rule. Poison birds are judged as marks.

judge this scenario

copterdoc

steve schreiner

Dan Boerboon

LESTER LANGLEY

Golddogs

Scott Greenwood

Golddogs

copterdoc

Howard N

copterdoc

Golddogs

copterdoc

Doug Main

copterdoc

paul young

copterdoc

Wyldfire

Doug Main

Howard N

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