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john fallon

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
With the way HT's are scored, mathematically "averaging" to seven/five scoring benchmarks for passing. Is there any bird in a setup for which the score for a perfect job should be less than a 10?... The relativly easy go bird for instance ?
Is it All marks are to be graded on a scale from 0 to 10 then added together and averaged, with a passing average of seven. Straight line math if you will, or is it something more complicated with different marks being given different grading ranges based on their percieved difficulty in the setup...........?

john
 
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#4 · (Edited)
The scoring system as stated on the score sheet is not a grade for each mark ( unless doing singles in Jr) but a number between 1-10 for the whole series...Some get there by totaling the 3 and divide by 3 ...others may have a 2for the go bird 3 for the 2nd bird picked up and 5 for the last one in a triple..still comes to a total of 1-10 for the series....I believe some marks deserve a higher score for the difficulties involved in getting there and remembering it...A 50 yard go bird in short grass is none thing more than a jr single....I expect the dogs to step on it ....the 3rd bird of the triple involves memory ..and the possibility of many factors in getting to it...I start each mark with a 7/8 and based on what I believe will be an acceptable job..If the dog does better than I expected the score goes up , if worse the score goes down... If you handle on the go bird does it carry the same weight as a handle on the memory bird? Some judges frown on that very badly....We can not expect our dogs to have a higher standard we have...Steve S
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
I believe some marks deserve a higher score for the difficulties involved in getting there and remembering it.

When we plug the numbers into a calculator it does not know which bird it is or why a perfect score on that bird is not a 10.

In order to score a 7 on a three bird test I must have enough points to devide by 3 to get there. So, if the go bird does not have 10 points to get to start with that means that the other two birds have to carry the weight.

Example using the Some get there by totaling the 3 and divide by 3 method I do a good job the go bird and I am given 5 ( 'cause some marks just ain't worth more than a 7 for a perfect job ????) and I do two acceptable jobs on the other two marks and am given a pair of 7's..... So by your scoring method did I average a 7 or a 6.333

john

john
 
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Discussion starter · #6 · (Edited)
Swampcollie said:
All marks are not equal, so in a given set-up each ones value is weighted depending upon difficulty.
Click to expand...
Without regard to the fact that that is to be found nowhere that I have looked so far in the rules....Will you show me an example of a three bird setups scoring and what I need on each bird to arrive at 7 or above?

john
 
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#7 · (Edited)
john fallon said:
Without regard to the fact that that is to be found nowhere that I have looked so far in the rules....Will you show me an example of a three bird setups scoring and what I need on each bird to arrive at 7 or above?

john
Click to expand...
Just as an example of how such a scoring might be done, view the following photo showing a master water triple.
Image


The first bird is thrown angled back, left to right in the center, to land on the far shore; the second bird is thrown almost flat, right to left, to land near the back of a stickup area of a point on the right; third, a flyer is shot right to left to land on the left side of the picture in mostly open water.

Using a variable value scoring system, we might decide the value of the flyer to be a maximum of 5 points, the right hand bird to be worth 10, and the deep center bird to be worth 15. A direct line to each mark would net 30 points, which then divided by 3 (total number of marks) would give a score of 10. A direct line to the 5 and 10 point birds with a bad hunt and handle on the long center bird, yielding, perhaps a value of 6 of the 15 available points, would then result in a total of 21, divided by 3 giving a score of 7 for the series in marking.

Understand that I am simply explaining one way in which such a system is used, speaking neither positively nor negatively about the use of such a system.

Each individual judge is charged with using a system that they can understand and which will allow them to "objectively" rate dog performances on a scale of 0-10.
 
#8 ·
John ,As I stated earlier there is only a provision made for scoring the complete set of marks ...not each mark ...page 37 Part II "in scoring a dog's abilities in a test the judges must a sign a numerical score from 0 to 10 that reflects their estimation of each ability that they have seen demonstrated .."

There is only one number that goes on the score sheet and it is for the WHOLE series....Each judge has to figure out how to get that one number based on what they saw the dog do...Some judges only want a Pass / Fail ....if pass give them a 7 if fail give them a 5 .....
 
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#9 · (Edited)
Sometimes it's difficult to score the first few dogs until you run more dogs and find out how the marks and the blind placements affect the way the dogs run there maybe factors that you didn't notice that throw the dogs off. I try to judge on a curve
 
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#11 ·
I am confused. Assuming you score on a 1-10 scale and a ten is confidently going right to the bird.

Did the dog mark or not? A pinned mark is a pinned mark = 10.
A confident small hook on a memory bird, and some would argue a go bird, can also be a 10. Why? The dog confidently marked the bird - no hunt. The area of the fall on memory marks is expanded compared to the area of the fall on a go bird. Also this is based on what you believe the AOF should be based on what you have set up and expect.

The difficulty comes in how the dog handles the factors, ie. perserverance.

A dog that confidently lines it gets a 10 on perserverance. Easy terrain or difficult terrain it shouldn't matter. That small hook. Probably didn't fight the factors very well - perserverance.

On a triple I average the three marks scores to come up with one score for each category.
 
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#13 ·
brandywinelabs said:
I am confused. Assuming you score on a 1-10 scale and a ten is confidently going right to the bird.

Did the dog mark or not? A pinned mark is a pinned mark = 10.
A confident small hook on a memory bird, and some would argue a go bird, can also be a 10. Why? The dog confidently marked the bird - no hunt. The area of the fall on memory marks is expanded compared to the area of the fall on a go bird. Also this is based on what you believe the AOF should be based on what you have set up and expect.

The difficulty comes in how the dog handles the factors, ie. perserverance.
A dog that confidently lines it gets a 10 on perserverance. Easy terrain or difficult terrain it shouldn't matter. That small hook. Probably didn't fight the factors very well - perserverance.

On a triple I average the three marks scores to come up with one score for each category.
Click to expand...
That's a good way to judge perserverance. I always thought perserverance was sticking with it, hunting hard in a small area even when the dog doesn't find the bird right away. My issue was with those dogs that went right in there and pinned that same bird. To me that dog's marking was so good, he didn't need to persevere, but how could I score him low on perserverance just because he pinned the bird? A ten on marking doesn't mean a zero on perserverance. I like your way better.

John
 
#14 ·
I'd rather judge the dogs than be a bookeeper.

ex-hunt test judge regards,
 
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#15 ·
I attended an AKC judges seminar this spring and we reviewed some actual score sheets from a few Master Tests (the names were blacked out).

In discussing how to score a marking series, the presenter used the "I start out with a 7 for what I expect to see" and then moves up or down if the dog exceeds or falls short of his expectations. He did not like the averaging of the maks within a multiple but rather the juding of each series as a whole.

With that said, there were no totals and no averages recorded on any of the score sheets that we looked at. There were only individuals scores for each ability for each marking or blind series.

Now, calculating the averages may not be needed if the dog received all 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s in all abilities and all tests. Obviously the average is at least a 5 on each ability and at least a 7 overall.

But, there were other score sheets where results were not as obvious. It appeared that the judges just got an overall opinion of pass or fail based on what they had observed.

Here is a link to more information on the use of the score sheets...
http://www.akc.org/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/score_sheet2005.cfm
 
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#16 ·
steve schreiner said:
John ,As I stated earlier there is only a provision made for scoring the complete set of marks ...not each mark ...page 37 Part II "in scoring a dog's abilities in a test the judges must a sign a numerical score from 0 to 10 that reflects their estimation of each ability that they have seen demonstrated .."

There is only one number that goes on the score sheet and it is for the WHOLE series....Each judge has to figure out how to get that one number based on what they saw the dog do...Some judges only want a Pass / Fail ....if pass give them a 7 if fail give them a 5 .....
Click to expand...
5 is not a failing score. in fact, it is the minimum PASSING score.

a translation from numbers to words, as i see it:

excellent- 10

very good- 8 or 9

good- 6 or 7

fair-4 or 5

poor- 2, 3 or 4

i want to see the dog again to be sure i want to drop it- 1

fail- 0

John F.-

a 7 on a difficult master triple could be satisfied by the dog hunting all 3 birds within the aof for each bird without hunting outside the aof. this would be on a triple where all 3 birds have equal difficulty. when the marks are of unequal difficulty, there are just too many ways to get a seven for me to list all the possibilities. i hope this answers part of your question, at least.-Paul
 
#17 ·
brandywinelabs said:
...On a triple I average the three marks scores to come up with one score for each category.
Click to expand...
What score do you give for a pinned go bird, a pinned 2nd bird which was very difficult and 50% of the dogs handled on, and getting the 3rd bird after not making the AOF on the initial hunt, then a long, long, long hunt, over a very big area, then a handle to the bird.

Would that be a 10 + 10 + 1 = 21 / 3 = 7?

With all 10's in perserverance, style, and trainability that dog passes (assuming an acceptable 2nd and third series).

Or, say the dog doesn't get the third bird at all and gets a 0 on that bird, you end up with an average of 6.67 for that marking series (although the dog would fail becasue all birds must be retrieved). Still looking good for a pass if the perserverance, style, and trainability scores are high.

I haven't done any HT judging, but it seams to me that I would prefer to judge each series as a whole rather than each mark individually.
 
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#18 ·
John Robinson said:
That's a good way to judge perserverance. I always thought perserverance was sticking with it, hunting hard in a small area even when the dog doesn't find the bird right away. My issue was with those dogs that went right in there and pinned that same bird. To me that dog's marking was so good, he didn't need to persevere, but how could I score him low on perserverance just because he pinned the bird? A ten on marking doesn't mean a zero on perserverance. I like your way better.

John
Click to expand...
John, it is all of those things. But it is also challenging the terrain and cover.
 
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#19 ·
captainjack said:
What score do you give for a pinned go bird, a pinned 2nd bird which was very difficult and 50% of the dogs handled on, and getting the 3rd bird after not making the AOF on the initial hunt, then a long, long, long hunt, over a very big area, then a handle to the bird.

Would that be a 10 + 10 + 1 = 21 / 3 = 7?

With all 10's in perserverance, style, and trainability that dog passes (assuming an acceptable 2nd and third series).

Or, say the dog doesn't get the third bird at all and gets a 0 on that bird, you end up with an average of 6.67 for that marking series (although the dog would fail becasue all birds must be retrieved). Still looking good for a pass if the perserverance, style, and trainability scores are high.

I haven't done any HT judging, but it seams to me that I would prefer to judge each series as a whole rather than each mark individually.[/QUO

in my opinion the dog would get no credit for marking that bird as you described it...-Paul
Click to expand...
 
#20 ·
captainjack said:
What score do you give for a pinned go bird, a pinned 2nd bird which was very difficult and 50% of the dogs handled on, and getting the 3rd bird after not making the AOF on the initial hunt, then a long, long, long hunt, over a very big area, then a handle to the bird.

Would that be a 10 + 10 + 1 = 21 / 3 = 7?

With all 10's in perserverance, style, and trainability that dog passes (assuming an acceptable 2nd and third series).

Or, say the dog doesn't get the third bird at all and gets a 0 on that bird, you end up with an average of 6.67 for that marking series (although the dog would fail becasue all birds must be retrieved). Still looking good for a pass if the perserverance, style, and trainability scores are high.

I haven't done any HT judging, but it seams to me that I would prefer to judge each series as a whole rather than each mark individually.
Click to expand...
Why shouldn't the 10-10-1 dog pass? We score to a standard. A dog could, theoretically, pass with an avg overall marking score of 5. Although I might/would be saying lets talk about this dog to my co-judge. Marking being of primary importance.

In JH do you judge a pin on a "less dificult" mark a 6 because it ended up being a "give me" mark?

Doing multiples aren't we judging three marks with the AOF for each mark, adjusting for each successive memory bird? At least according to the rules it should. It is up to us to determine how much it adjusts. Doesn't it theoritically then become easier to give a ten on those memory marks should a dog confidently go the the enlarged "bullseye for that mark? Seems that is the intent of the rule.....
 
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