Limit Amateur Status?

Happy Gilmore · Nov 6, 2010

Enough though, I just came inside to refill my coffee. Walking out the front door about 200 yards to the river to see if any more ducks are around to shoot.

Marvin S · Nov 6, 2010

2tall said:
Ted I am sorry my post caused such an explosion of defensiveness on your part, in future I will never ever question anything you say. Alright? In your lengthy reply listing the entries in an Am stake, there are several folks who fit one or both of the categories mentioned. I do not say this with any disrespect, I say let 'em all run, all I care about is what I can or can not do with my own dog. I simply said it is the worst kind of denial and defensiveness to say that people that operate on a daily basis the same way or with pros,

BTW, when I had never run a ft the most common dismissal of my thoughts or comments, was "well how many trials have you run". Now that I have taken the challenge and begun trying, its "well how many AA have you run".

The old guard will never change, and will never acknowledge that change can occasionally be a good thing. Drive away all of us new people by your self righteousness, and see what you are left with at the end of the day.

Ever wonder why something that is prevalent gets the reception that your remark received. It's because it is true. There are regular abuses of the system but those who believe they are beneficiaries do their level best to shut dissent up.

2tall - I have to hand it to you - not everyone can make can make Ted go ballistic as you did

. Ted likes to bully the newbies of the sport. Ted would like you to believe he's one of the many that use Pro's, but in reality many who he mentioned on his various rantings do not receive the same level of hand holding that Ted receives. He's just a guy who shows up on the weekend with a truck load of dogs trained by someone else & he gets to sign autographs while playing the big shot.

A few years back one of the icon Pro's was unable to make a trial so one of his Amateur clients took his truck to the trial & picked up all 8 placings available in the AA stakes. About that time there was a series of ads from Labby talking about "Rent a Handler". Humorous!!!!!!!!! So it does exist. The abuses in the Co-Owner category are legion. It wasn't too long age someone commented to me about a handler that runs several dogs also showing up at a trial with more dogs trained by his Pro that he did not own to run in the AA stakes. Same trial he conveniently mentioned to show everybody does it. The AKC does a poor job of policing abuse even though they are aware of what is happening.

But don't accept what he says as gospel, his praise of some & giving credit to others shows he has an immense lack of knowledge about what goes on. & rest assured their are many of the Old Timers that find his self congratulatory know it all style hard to stomach.

As for the "Old Guard", they are always around. They only believe the newbies should exist to work for them & sell them their good dogs when they get one.

But don't get discouraged - The sport is full of people that "if you were able to buy them for what they are worth & sell them for what they thought they were worth" you'd be quite wealthy. It also has several who are really nice people, just less of them, I'd rather associate with the latter group.

Howard N · Nov 6, 2010

He's just a guy who shows up on the weekend with a truck load of dogs trained by someone else & he gets to sign autographs while playing the big shot.

I think you're wrong on this Marvin. Ted is very involved with training his dogs.

I have a hard time thinking of Ted as the old guard. His hair isn't silvery enough.

2tall · Nov 6, 2010

Marvin, have no fear that I will be so easily discouraged

. Thanks to my vagabond life over the past 12 months I have met field trialers and hunt testers all over the country. I can say without hesitation that the dog people I met are some of the best people I've EVER met. I think all of us get carried away on the net sometimes, its just too easy to poke a stick in that snake hole!;-)

22899 · Nov 6, 2010

Excuse me!

Ted doesnt need anybody as lowly as Gooser to defend him But,,,,,,,,

Ted has alway been more than gracious to me. He has extended an open hand to me and my very inexperianced HT dog to join their training group.
He could EASILY belittle me and bully too! He has always been nothing more than a perfect gentleman to me, and my lack of inexperiance.
He has always made me feel more than welcome, answered my questions with direct and polite answers, and encouraged me to come back and join the group anytime I wanted. He knows derned well, I will always be a HT'r~~and has never displayed one bit of arrogance to me!

Joining in on his training days with the group he trains with, has always been a very enjoyable day with a great bunch of people, and a Pro trainer that is just a delight to be around.

Im sure Ted is a fierce competitor! Good for him,, thats the game you guys play!!I'm sure Ted does it well, based on his dedication to his dogs, and his hard work at those training days. He is VERY involved at those events. Many times with the Pro askin Ted his opinion.

Gooser

Buzz · Nov 6, 2010

I think the am handlers should be treated like Q dogs. Two wins and you lose eligibility.

OK, I'm kidding.

Reading this thread makes it easy to forget that it's just a game.

Jeff Bartlett · Nov 6, 2010

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:
Enough though, I just came inside to refill my coffee. Walking out the front door about 200 yards to the river to see if any more ducks are around to shoot.

Instead of walking out to go see if there are any birds you
Might. Want to train
Like all the amateurs that do something at the trials that had full time jobs
Who's dogs arnt trained by pros to name a few
Marion
Crabb
BENTA
Gaffstra
And a few more

david gibson · Nov 6, 2010

and you guys wonder why more HT people dont come over the the FT side..... sigh

Tim Carrion · Nov 7, 2010

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:
Without Pro trained dogs in the AM there would not be an AM stake.

No. There would be different dogs in the Amateur. At first these new dogs, on average, would not be the same caliber as the current dogs. Given time the quality would increase. This has been the history of field trials.

Tim

EdA · Nov 7, 2010

I continue to be mystified at the myth of wealthy retired amateurs who run multiple dogs off successful professional trucks to be a widespread phenomenon. This myth is perpetuated by people who do not run field trials, have only run a few, run a few each year but only in their home area, or used to run them but haven't in a decade or two.

Three people who do run field trials in different areas each year have repudiated this myth in this thread but the myth will not die. While I have not been competitive in all age stakes for several years (that is changing I hope) I do run dogs and have judged in many areas and there are simply no people who fit the description of those that Happy, 2Tall, and Marvin have alluded to.

Additionally the myth of widespread co-ownership to circumvent the Owner Handler Amateur All-Age stake is equally invalid.

The entry at the National Amateur Retriever Championship increases annually yet rarely does anyone run more than 2 dogs which they own as the sole owner.

Amateurs are the reason we have retriever field trials, they govern them, judge them, and finance them. To restrict their participation based on a self perpetuated myth would constitute institutional suicide.

john fallon · Nov 7, 2010

EdA said:
I continue to be mystified at the myth of wealthy retired amateurs who run multiple dogs off successful professional trucks to be a widespread phenomenon. This myth is perpetuated by people who do not run field trials, have only run a few, run a few each year but only in their home area, or used to run them but haven't in a decade or two.

Three people who do run field trials in different areas each year have repudiated this myth in this thread but the myth will not die. While I have not been competitive in all age stakes for several years (that is changing I hope) I do run dogs and have judged in many areas and there are simply no people who fit the description of those that Happy, 2Tall, and Marvin have alluded to.

Additionally the myth of widespread co-ownership to circumvent the Owner Handler Amateur All-Age stake is equally invalid.

The entry at the National Amateur Retriever Championship increases annually yet rarely does anyone run more than 2 dogs which they own as the sole owner.

Amateurs are the reason we have retriever field trials, they govern them, judge them, and finance them. To restrict their participation based on a self perpetuated myth would constitute institutional suicide.

Sooooooo..... there is not now, nor was there ever the need for the OH Am ?

john

David Carpenter · Nov 7, 2010

Well put from Tom--

I have the advantage of a top level pro for help--but have had great advice from the "pro-ams" as well

Complain and agonize--or get to work and compete--

EdA · Nov 7, 2010

john fallon said:
Sooooooo..... there is not now, nor was there ever the need for the OH Am ?

john

The abuses that led to the concept of the Owner Handler Amateur stake occurred 25 years ago, the existence of the stake is a deterrent to the repetition of those abuses.

john fallon · Nov 7, 2010

EdA said:
The abuses that led to the concept of the Owner Handler Amateur stake occurred 25 years ago, the existence of the stake is a deterrent to the repetition of those abuses.

Gotcha..... It happened befo', but it don't happen no mo'.

john

david gibson · Nov 7, 2010

EdA said:
The abuses that led to the concept of the Owner Handler Amateur stake occurred 25 years ago, the existence of the stake is a deterrent to the repetition of those abuses.

and hence we have hunt tests where the AmOH doesnt have to fear going against pros day in and dayout. in fact, they meet some good ones and a lot of knowledge is shared.

have we solved anything here??? ;-)

EdA · Nov 7, 2010

david gibson said:
have we solved anything here??? ;-)

apparently not.........

Marvin S · Nov 7, 2010

Howard N said:
I think you're wrong on this Marvin. Ted is very involved with training his dogs.

I'll give you this as long as you're agreeing with the rest of my post

. But TBS, a wage slave, no matter how highly paid is still that - there's only so many hours of daylight.

MooseGooser said:
Ted has alway been more than gracious to me. He knows derned well, I will always be a HT'r~~and has never displayed one bit of arrogance to me! Gooser

Gooser - I just can't imagine you finding fault with anyone, we could stand a couple like you in this part of the country.

But the fact is, Ted's tirade toward 2tall was out of line & I'll end it there.

EdA said:
I continue to be mystified at the myth of wealthy retired amateurs who run multiple dogs off successful professional trucks to be a widespread phenomenon. This myth is perpetuated by people who do not run field trials, have only run a few, run a few each year but only in their home area, or used to run them but haven't in a decade or two.

Happy, 2Tall, and Marvin have alluded to.

Additionally the myth of widespread co-ownership to circumvent the Owner Handler Amateur All-Age stake is equally invalid.

The entry at the National Amateur Retriever Championship increases annually yet rarely does anyone run more than 2 dogs which they own as the sole owner.

Amateurs are the reason we have retriever field trials, they govern them, judge them, and finance them. To restrict their participation based on a self perpetuated myth would constitute institutional suicide.

As I fit none of the descriptions you presented I will continue. Your glasses are rose colored & that will never change, but that's your business. I respect you for your willingness to step into a thread & provide professional advice, but that's because you know what you are talking about professionally. What was described does exist, there's always someone trying to pick up a buck from the sport. when that happens there will be dishonesty. The sport has gone downhill ethically with all the money floating around

.

The sport used to be a lot like HT's in the part of the country I started the sport in, it's no longer that way. Even then we would have good amateur handlers show up with a Station Wagon full of dogs, some that they did not own. Think they were doing it like an Am?

But naming names will not help, they need to be weeded out 1 at a time because they are there taking advantage & until the folks paying the fees & doing the work rise up, it's not going to happen.

Happy Gilmore · Nov 7, 2010

Jeff Bartlett said:
Instead of walking out to go see if there are any birds you
Might. Want to train
Like all the amateurs that do something at the trials that had full time jobs
Who's dogs arnt trained by pros to name a few
Marion
Crabb
BENTA
Gaffstra
And a few more

Jeff, hopefully not to give anyone a bad reputation by association to me, you've named a few of my favorite people that I think are truley "classy" when it comes to amatuers. I appreciate the time the folks you've named spend bs'ig(tolerating) me asking questions and I thank you for promoting and encouraging young newbies into the sport. That's why the northwest folks will be strong rolling into the future and why our history is deep. Marvin, I've met you on a couple occasions although, I know you wouldn't know me by name. I did enjoy your commentary on the tests and willingness to share your knowledge. It was the AM at carlson's this year. The one with the little 30 yard blind at the base of the tree by the highway. Ducks were'nt in today. Goosin tomorrow mornin then off to watch the hawks! What a great weekend!

Happy Gilmore · Nov 7, 2010

EdA said:
I continue to be mystified at the myth of wealthy retired amateurs who run multiple dogs off successful professional trucks to be a widespread phenomenon. This myth is perpetuated by people who do not run field trials, have only run a few, run a few each year but only in their home area, or used to run them but haven't in a decade or two.

Three people who do run field trials in different areas each year have repudiated this myth in this thread but the myth will not die. While I have not been competitive in all age stakes for several years (that is changing I hope) I do run dogs and have judged in many areas and there are simply no people who fit the description of those that Happy, 2Tall, and Marvin have alluded to.

Additionally the myth of widespread co-ownership to circumvent the Owner Handler Amateur All-Age stake is equally invalid.

The entry at the National Amateur Retriever Championship increases annually yet rarely does anyone run more than 2 dogs which they own as the sole owner.

Amateurs are the reason we have retriever field trials, they govern them, judge them, and finance them. To restrict their participation based on a self perpetuated myth would constitute institutional suicide.

Ed, based on Teds account of the MT trial and the entry he eloquently described, all but a few were AM trained dogs.

J. Walker · Nov 7, 2010

cakaiser said:
Do you think it's really such a huge advantage to just show up, pull the dog off a pro truck, and run it?
I sure don't, because it has never worked very well for us.....

It can be an advantage to run multiple dogs, have them pro trained, sure. But, it is also a disadvantage to never have your hand over those dogs in training, have no relationship with them. IMO
It's a team sport, and you and the dog better be on the same page.....

As for grounds, ponds, flyers, bird boys..
Those things are necessary, amateur or pro.

I don't know of any folks who who don't spend some time running their own dogs in training with their pros and getting instruction from the pros in the process. Yes, we all need grounds, ponds, etc. However, when most pros can walk out their back doors, load the dogs up, and take them to one of the five ponds on the property while shooting multiple flyers for every dog every week, that's a HUGE advantage for the pro-trained dogs as compared to the vast majority of purely amateur trained dogs.

Limit Amateur Status?

Happy Gilmore

Marvin S

Howard N

2tall

22899

Buzz

Jeff Bartlett

david gibson

Tim Carrion

EdA

john fallon

David Carpenter

EdA

john fallon

david gibson

EdA

Marvin S

Happy Gilmore

Happy Gilmore

J. Walker

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities